Oct 21, 2008, 5:36 PM
Post #26 of 78
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Re: [climbingtrash] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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climbingtrash wrote:
angry wrote:
...Do not feel free to come up with your own cliches. Yours will suck. Just use mine, you'll feel better about it and won't make yourself look stupid by trying too hard.
Don't tell me what to do.
I agree. His post was pretty fucking mouse balls. Damnz! You best me yet again, Angry! [shitzpantsinrageface]
Oct 21, 2008, 9:48 PM
Post #29 of 78
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Re: [acorneau] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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acorneau wrote:
I use a Purcell Prussik for a tether because it's adjustable (like a daisy) with the benefit of being shock-absorbing as well (like the rope).
I'll also throw on a clove hitch when I'm settled.
Just found this interesting quote:
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Research was done by Mike Gibbs of Rigging for Rescue in Ouray Colorado on the results of shock loading daisy chains and other commonly used positioning lanyards. In addition to being the owner of one of the premier rescue training organizations in the country (R4R), Mike is an active climbing guide as well as a member of the Ouray Mountain Rescue team. Mike performed dynamic testing on daisy chains as well as a number of positioning lanyards commonly used in climbing and rope rescue. The results of this testing were informative, to say the least. After reading this post, many of you may want to reconsider your choice in positioning lanyards.
Mike designed a drop test representative of what could take place in the field that would provide some indications as to the capabilities and/or limitations of positioning lanyards. A common example in canyoneering would be slipping from a stance when starting a rappel with the anchor at your feet resulting in dynamically loading your safety lanyard. The purpose was to examine the magnitude of peak forces as well as the integrity of the connections on certain commercially and user-created lanyards in a dynamic event. The drops were conducted with 80 kg and 100 kg mass simulating the weight of a climber or climber with a heavy pack and fall factors from 0.5 to 2.0. The surprise was how easily daisy chains and some other lanyards resulted in catastrophic failure on relatively short drops.
Test results were sobering at best. Particularly considering how many canyoneers still insist on using the daisy chain (almost 30% of poll responders) as their primary positioning lanyard. Daisy chains failed in short falls (FF 0.5-1.0) and slings made of Spectra/Dyneema webbing exhibited alarmingly high impact forces (>12kN) and catastrophic failure at surprisingly low fall factors. In canyoneering this could easily happen at any rap anchor below chest level. One slip and bang, you've dynamically loaded the anchor.
Nylon slings (not nylon daisy chains) and the Purcell Prusik came out on top as a result of their shock absorbing abilities. Typically, nylon slings held falls with reasonable impact forces (<10kN). The Purcell Prusik did best holding up to factor 2 falls with impact forces of less than 12kN. (FYI acceptable impact forces: CE 6kN, CSA/OSHA 8kN and UIAA 12kN).
SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK!
Oh christ. Now we have two of you on this site. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING TO CLIMBING TOPICS WHEN YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
The Purcell system has it's place in technical rescues systems. And for good reasons. They are light, compact, and adjustable. They are great for edge personal especially. THEY SUCK FOR ASCENDING A FIX LINE. BUY SOME FUCKING ASCENDERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM.
As far as using them to tie into a belay while climbing, worthless. Learn to keep the systems simple. Unless you are doing a rope stretching picth that is going to use almost all your rope, the system I described previously works fine. Clove, slack, figure 8. It's simple, clean, adjustable, and most importantly, easy to inspect. Especially if you're tired.
I'm sorry for jumping down your throat, but I'm tired of non/newbie climbers on SAR posting drawings and explaining all the "physics" about things they clearly are not experienced at doing.
How do I know this? I worked SAR here in Josh for almost 5 years, and, GASP, I actually climb a bunch.
So, my advice, site back, watch, learn, and listen.
Oct 21, 2008, 10:14 PM
Post #30 of 78
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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If you're going to get in a tizzy you might want to explain what you have against the Purcell Prusik after having said that it is light, compact and adjustable.
Oct 21, 2008, 11:09 PM
Post #31 of 78
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Re: [hafilax] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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hafilax wrote:
If you're going to get in a tizzy you might want to explain what you have against the Purcell Prusik after having said that it is light, compact and adjustable.
What is so dangerous about that system?
He didn't say it was dangerous, he said it was needlessly complex. That said, I don't know what the farg a purcell prusik is, nor do I care, nor do I think it will ever matter as long as there are a multitude of simple ways to secure my blorted ass to anchor. But to each his own.
Oct 21, 2008, 11:09 PM
Post #32 of 78
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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socalclimber wrote:
SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT, SAR DORK ALERT! ALL HANDS ON DECK!
Oh christ. Now we have two of you on this site. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING TO CLIMBING TOPICS WHEN YOU CLEARLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
Sorry, pal, but I'm not a SAR anything, much less a dork. I clearly DO know what I'm talking about because I use a Purcell Prusik on a weekly basis and it's a GREAT personal tether. It has a lot of advantages over daisy chains, PAS/Chain Reactors and slings that a lot of people seem to favor.
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THEY SUCK FOR ASCENDING A FIX LINE. BUY SOME FUCKING ASCENDERS AND LEARN TO USE THEM.
I NEVER said I would use them for ascending a rope. No one else said they use them for ascending a rope. This thread is about personal tethering to anchors, so what the hell are you talking about?!?
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I'm sorry for jumping down your throat, but I'm tired of non/newbie climbers on SAR posting drawings and explaining all the "physics" about things they clearly are not experienced at doing.
Wrong again, I'm a climber and I did not try to "explain physics" to anyone, just quoted what someone else said.
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So, my advice, site back, watch, learn, and listen.
And my advice to you is to STFU when you don't know who you're talking to or when you try to spout your OPINION as fact, Ass.
I figured that going through the effort the post meant you had a strong dislike for the Purcell Prusik. The statement that they were overly complex and that the clove hitch 8 combo is easier to check when tired led me to believe that you felt it was dangerous. That is why I asked the question?
So you have nothing against Purcell Prusiks, just the people that use them.
I figured that going through the effort the post meant you had a strong dislike for the Purcell Prusik. The statement that they were overly complex and that the clove hitch 8 combo is easier to check when tired led me to believe that you felt it was dangerous. That is why I asked the question?
So you have nothing against Purcell Prusiks, just the people that use them.
Look. I have nothing against the people who use them. I have nothing against the system itself. What I have a serious problem with are people who suggest systems they clearly know nothing about.
Just like I have a serious problem with those who work technical rescue but know next to nothing about climbing and yet insist on preaching about climbing.
Go spend a few years working the SAR scene, you'll see what I'm talking about.
Oct 22, 2008, 2:23 AM
Post #41 of 78
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Re: [irregularpanda] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
irregularpanda wrote:
zeke_sf wrote:
fresh wrote:
clove hitch. wicked quick, simple, adjustable.
Yeah, what Squeezebox said.
Yes, what dingleberry and squeezebox said.
You really might want to emphasize that this should be followed by some slack and a figure 8 as a backup.
Just for clarity.
I back it up with the purcell prussik on occasion, just so I can annoy erkel the anti-SAR-nazi.
Hey, wait a minute, I think I've just been insulted....
I DON'T WHERE GLASSES, AND I'M NOT BLACK.
So there
I just couldn't think of anything better than dingleberry, so I called you erkel the anti sar nazi...................
But seriously, I use the purcell and the clove, except in situations where I just use the clove. Stupid, yes. Effective, Yes. Simple, Yes.
I trust only a clove sometimes.
I honestly don't think this is a great system. I really feel that people (myself included) need to work with the gear they have with them, not a bunch of 'extras'.
THE PURCELL IS NOT DANGEROUS. What's dangerous is adding 'fluff' you do not need. You are adding fluff to your system when you do not need it. You have a rope, you have an anchor, you have biners. PLEASE TELL ME, WHAT ELSE DO YOU NEED to safely attach yourself to the system.
The answer:
NOTHING. You already have what you need. Now, on long multipitch climbs should you carry a prussic, or extra slings to rig and escape or ascend a system, sure.
Second, I don't hate SAR, nor am I against SAR, what I'm against is the general SAR mentality that they know things they clearly don't.
It's there self abosrbed sense of self importance that is rampant thru out the SAR community that I cannot stand.
Just to be clear.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 22, 2008, 2:27 AM)
Oct 22, 2008, 4:02 AM
Post #42 of 78
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Re: [climbingtrash] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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I use a PAS girth hitched around both contact points of the harness. I usually throw a clove hitch on as well to back it up because I tend to be a little paranoid and it takes but a second to get that much extra peace of mind.
Oct 22, 2008, 5:27 AM
Post #43 of 78
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Hey Socal & Acorn, Just to clarify, the purcell prusik that Acorn is suggesting is not the purcell system used to ascend a rope. This purcell is a pretty nifty safety tether. I'm rather certain that SAR teams would not use this system as it's potential to slip with a dramatic increase in the load; also because most people outside of cavers/canyoners have never seen it. This slippage is one reason that I will always back up my purcell when belaying; but my primary anchor is almost always a clove on that beefy dynamic rope that I'm already attached to.
I personally perfer it to any other safety tether setup that I've seen/used, with the exception of the clove. Its adjustability is fantastic when transitioning from anchor to rappel, as it will transfer your weight onto rappel for you. It also seems to surpass most other systems in individual testings.
Oct 22, 2008, 10:25 AM
Post #44 of 78
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Re: [jermeng] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Believe it or not, some SAR teams do indeed use a purcell system for ascending. For rappeling I can certainly see how it would come in handy. My whole point is anchoring in to a belay while climbing. When I was on SAR we used them in several capacities. The most common was for the edge attendants, great way to adjust your position. Purcells are fine, I just don't understand why people insist on dragging all this stuff around with them when they have a perfectly good tool with them, the rope.
Oct 23, 2008, 2:44 AM
Post #47 of 78
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Re: [binrat] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Hey look, do what ya need to do, I guess what I am ultimately saying is learn how to use the tools you have rather than adding things you probably don't need.
I mean really, in something as dangerous as climbing, do you really want to be Tim Taylor The Tool Man and add more power to a perfectly functional proven tool????
Oct 23, 2008, 12:42 PM
Post #48 of 78
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Re: [socalclimber] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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socalclimber wrote:
Hey look, do what ya need to do, I guess what I am ultimately saying is learn how to use the tools you have rather than adding things you probably don't need.
I mean really, in something as dangerous as climbing, do you really want to be Tim Taylor The Tool Man and add more power to a perfectly functional proven tool????
Not me.
When I started to lead trad, I have always had two connections points at the belay stance. Over kill maybe, using the rope always as first connected point and the last. I don't like daisy chains for a teather and I use the purcell for sport so what the hell. Thats all.
Oct 23, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #49 of 78
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Re: [binrat] what do you anchor yourself to the belay with?
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Ah, that makes things a little more clearer. I guess one of the things that really bothers me is that I am seeing more and more people at the crags dragging all this crap along with them. One guy in particular had one of those Metolius personal anchoring systems. I asked nicely about it, then I inquired why he didn't just the rope. He didn't know how. I showed him the process and also showed him and his partner how to tie in with a double 8. They were nice guys and offered me a rope on their route.
It just seems people these days are relying gear and toys rather than knowledge.
Scarry.
P.S. Note to self to send a PM to acorn and apologize for pissing in his cheerios.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Oct 23, 2008, 1:28 PM)
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