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dondada
Nov 3, 2008, 12:55 PM
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so im starting to get enough skills to start doing some easy/short trad climbs and i have a specific question. if rope drag is not going to be an issue as in a shorter pitch/ no roofs ect. is it better to have a realitivly short runner on the first piece so as to be acutally protected by it and potentially take a pendulum. or is it better to have a long runner and potentially deck just to keep the rope from meandering?? thanx for the info
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socalclimber
Nov 3, 2008, 1:10 PM
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Your question is sorta opaque, but I'll take a stab.
If the pitch/climb is pretty much straight forward, you can just use the sling attached to the cam. No point in extending the fall. If the first, or any piece is deep in a crack so the biner isn't sticking out very far, put a sling or quickdraw on it.
I'm not sure what you mean about the penji fall.
As usual, it all depends on the situation.
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a-e-jones
Nov 3, 2008, 1:21 PM
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quickdraw
or place the piece up higher off the ground
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billl7
Nov 3, 2008, 1:24 PM
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You might find that this thread discusses some of the concerns. There is more to it than whether you could deck with a longer runner or whether a short runner could introduce rope drag - although those are also factors.
Of course, the leader has the responisibility of weighing the concerns against the particular situation.
Bill L
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cantbuymefriends
Nov 3, 2008, 1:32 PM
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There's no point in itself to use a long runner, so if the distance between first and second piece of pro is so marginal that you risk a groundfall, then by all means clip in short. (the purpose of the pro is to protect you, not to avoid ropedrag, right?)
However, if you're not familiar with the subject of "pieces in opposition at your first placement", you are advised to read up on that. 
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shoo
Nov 3, 2008, 1:36 PM
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The question of whether or not to sling usually comes down to 3 things:
1. Will not slinging produce significant rope drag in the system?
2. Will a change in direction of the rope from above cause my piece to pop out or walk?
3. Will adding a sling put enough extra slack in the system that I might deck?
One good alternative is setting your first placement piece as a short multi-directional piece. You could set a piece below your good one with the direction of pull straight up, and use a sling and clove hitch to connect the two together and keep them under tension. This will prevent walking, and keep the system short, but won't do much for reducing rope drag.
Edited to note: cantbuymefriends beat me to it
(This post was edited by shoo on Nov 3, 2008, 1:37 PM)
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granite_grrl
Nov 3, 2008, 1:38 PM
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What are you placing the peice of gear for? To keep you off the ground if you fall or to keep the rope running smoothly? Both are valid uses for your first piece but it depends on the climb and your abilities.
Trad climbing is often an exercise in trade offs. I'm sorry, but you'll find no perfect answer here. Just try to make it do what you want it to do.
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cantbuymefriends
Nov 3, 2008, 1:48 PM
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If you put a long sling on the first piece, consider that you might have to put pieces in opposition on your higher placements as well, to avoid the zipper effect.
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dondada
Nov 3, 2008, 4:44 PM
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thats basically what i was thinking. i'd rather have a piece of pro actually catch my fall as opposed to having a perfectly straight line in my rope. i do understand the need for having a multi/omni-directional first piece ect. i was thinking more like if the first piece is bomber and multi directional(on the first pitch especially) with no chance of a biner being loaded over an edge ect; what would be the best option. i also dig what granitgirl is saying with regards to trade offs and skill ect. but when beginning as a trad leader i suppose the prudent thing to do is make sure your potential fall is not a deck. i was also thinking when your just starting as a trad leader that your not likely to be climbing at your limit so a little rope drag should not be the difference between a send and a fall. thanks for the info and any other thought would help a brother out.
good thread btw bill thanx
(This post was edited by dondada on Nov 3, 2008, 5:11 PM)
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chossmonkey
Nov 3, 2008, 6:12 PM
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Never sling long!!!
Or was that sling every piece long???
Crap......
Do what the situation dictates.
What is the point of placing gear if it won't keep you off the ground?
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happiegrrrl
Nov 3, 2008, 10:08 PM
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cracklover wrote: chossmonkey wrote: What is the point of placing gear if it won't keep you off the ground? Bingo. Question answered. GO
First piece as the anti-zip superhero is a reason to place it low. Especially with a beginner leader who may not have the ability to analyze placements well yet, especially under pressure.
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spikeddem
Nov 3, 2008, 10:31 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: cracklover wrote: chossmonkey wrote: What is the point of placing gear if it won't keep you off the ground? Bingo. Question answered. GO First piece as the anti-zip superhero is a reason to place it low. Especially with a beginner leader who may not have the ability to analyze placements well yet, especially under pressure.
Bingo.
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cracklover
Nov 3, 2008, 11:12 PM
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Ah, the cult of the anti-zip-superhero. Good grief.
I've never had a key piece zip out. How about this news-flash: Place your pieces properly, and if necessary, oppose them to keep them in place.
Putting in extra gear while standing on the ground is just silly. And a good way to pull your belayer off his stance, most likely, if you really do fall.
GO
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chossmonkey
Nov 4, 2008, 12:05 AM
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happiegrrrl wrote: cracklover wrote: chossmonkey wrote: What is the point of placing gear if it won't keep you off the ground? Bingo. Question answered. GO First piece as the anti-zip superhero is a reason to place it low. Especially with a beginner leader who may not have the ability to analyze placements well yet, especially under pressure.
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