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denorza2009
Nov 7, 2008, 8:20 PM
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Hi
I've picked up a Black Diamond Alipine Bod harness as an loaner harness for if I want to take someone out with me.
Question though, if I'm having someone rappel with an autoblock below their belay device, where should I put the locking 'biner connected to the autoblock on this harness?
Normally I just clip it on the leg loop of my Momentum AL which is quite beefy.
However the Al Bod harness has a plastic leg buckle,
and I'm uneasy about placing the 'biner on the leg loop, like I do on my own.
http://www.bdel.com/gear/alpine_bod.php
I'm considering using this harness for myself as well, is another reason for my inquiry.
thanks in advance
Dan
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suilenroc
Nov 7, 2008, 8:53 PM
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Ditch the autoblock jazz.... Usually when you add a backup other than a "fireman's belay" to a rappel outing you make things more difficult for a beginner. Teach them how to do it right and you don't need a backup. Be Safe, don't die.
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Gmburns2000
Nov 7, 2008, 9:09 PM
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suilenroc wrote: Ditch the autoblock jazz.... Usually when you add a backup other than a "fireman's belay" to a rappel outing you make things more difficult for a beginner. Teach them how to do it right and you don't need a backup. Be Safe, don't die.
Sorry, gonna disagree here. A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly" - whatever that means.
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kcontratto
Nov 7, 2008, 9:25 PM
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Another option is to extend the rappel device from the belay loop with a couple of short slings, and then you can setup an AutoBlock below the rap device - clipped into the belay loop of the harness.
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suilenroc
Nov 7, 2008, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, gonna disagree here. A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly" - whatever that means.
Why would i think otherwise... Well, a backup is not a part of rappelling correctly. Rappelling correctly is doing just that, rappelling. And who are you quoting with "properly"?
For the purpose of his question my suggestion was to not use a backup because he is questioning the harness he is using.... eh.
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HappinessIsWinning
Nov 7, 2008, 9:44 PM
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suilenroc wrote: kcontratto wrote: Another option is to extend the rappel device from the belay loop with a couple of short slings, and then you can setup an AutoBlock below the rap device - clipped into the belay loop of the harness. Second best response yet 
Your original response suilenroc, was bad. That's the kind of thinking that leads to people killing themselves. kcontratto makes a good point and Gmburns2000 was absolutely correct:
Gmburns2000 wrote: A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly".
Only thing I would add is the addition of a back-up knot in the ends of the rope. You know, if you want to do it "correctly".
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Gmburns2000
Nov 7, 2008, 9:55 PM
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suilenroc wrote: In reply to: Sorry, gonna disagree here. A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly" - whatever that means. Why would i think otherwise... Well, a backup is not a part of rappelling correctly. Rappelling correctly is doing just that, rappelling. And who are you quoting with "properly"? For the purpose of his question my suggestion was to not use a backup because he is questioning the harness he is using.... eh.
suilenroc wrote: Ditch the autoblock jazz.... Usually when you add a backup other than a "fireman's belay" to a rappel outing you make things more difficult for a beginner. Teach them how to do it right and you don't need a backup. Be Safe, don't die.
The embolded seem to go together rather well, don't you think? Suggesting that "doing it right" doesn't include a backup is kind of foolish. A back up can very easily be a part of "doing it right."
Is it possible to rappel without a backup? Absolutely. I never said that it wasn't. Does a backup mean that the person isn't rapping correctly? Absolutely not. Can a back up on a rappel save a life whereas not having one possibly end one? Absolutely. This isn't the akin to teaching a kid to do long division with a calculator; it's called being safe, and I doubt that this particular harness removes the possibility of using a backup. Use your head and you'll find a better solution to "not use a backup" because of "the harness he is using."
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suilenroc
Nov 7, 2008, 10:03 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: suilenroc wrote: In reply to: Sorry, gonna disagree here. A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly" - whatever that means. Why would i think otherwise... Well, a backup is not a part of rappelling correctly. Rappelling correctly is doing just that, rappelling. And who are you quoting with "properly"? For the purpose of his question my suggestion was to not use a backup because he is questioning the harness he is using.... eh. suilenroc wrote: Ditch the autoblock jazz.... Usually when you add a backup other than a "fireman's belay" to a rappel outing you make things more difficult for a beginner. Teach them how to do it right and you don't need a backup. Be Safe, don't die. The embolded seem to go together rather well, don't you think? Suggesting that "doing it right" doesn't include a backup is kind of foolish. A back up can very easily be a part of "doing it right." Is it possible to rappel without a backup? Absolutely. I never said that it wasn't. Does a backup mean that the person isn't rapping correctly? Absolutely not. Can a back up on a rappel save a life whereas not having one possibly end one? Absolutely. This isn't the akin to teaching a kid to do long division with a calculator; it's called being safe, and I doubt that this particular harness removes the possibility of using a backup. Use your head and you'll find a better solution to "not use a backup" because of "the harness he is using."
Hahah, WOW, and Lame. Lighten up.
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spikeddem
Nov 7, 2008, 10:33 PM
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suilenroc wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: suilenroc wrote: In reply to: Sorry, gonna disagree here. A backup is every bit a part of rappelling correctly and is definitely a good thing to teach. Why would you think otherwise? A backup on rappel is not just a convenience factor, as it prevents potentially disasterous results that could happen outside of rappelling "properly" - whatever that means. Why would i think otherwise... Well, a backup is not a part of rappelling correctly. Rappelling correctly is doing just that, rappelling. And who are you quoting with "properly"? For the purpose of his question my suggestion was to not use a backup because he is questioning the harness he is using.... eh. suilenroc wrote: Ditch the autoblock jazz.... Usually when you add a backup other than a "fireman's belay" to a rappel outing you make things more difficult for a beginner. Teach them how to do it right and you don't need a backup. Be Safe, don't die. The embolded seem to go together rather well, don't you think? Suggesting that "doing it right" doesn't include a backup is kind of foolish. A back up can very easily be a part of "doing it right." Is it possible to rappel without a backup? Absolutely. I never said that it wasn't. Does a backup mean that the person isn't rapping correctly? Absolutely not. Can a back up on a rappel save a life whereas not having one possibly end one? Absolutely. This isn't the akin to teaching a kid to do long division with a calculator; it's called being safe, and I doubt that this particular harness removes the possibility of using a backup. Use your head and you'll find a better solution to "not use a backup" because of "the harness he is using." Hahah, WOW, and Lame. Lighten up.
Stop offering dangerous advice. It's not a light topic, and it doesn't make sense to be light about it.
Edit: If you were teaching someone to drive, would you teach them to drive without a seat belt? Driving properly has little to do with whether or not one should be wearing a seat belt. Whether driving or rapelling, you're in an environment you don't have control over, so you must be prepared.
As for the OP:
I would say teach the beginner about the importance of a back-up, and just give a firemans belay. That is, if it works well for the situation you're in (if it allows them to go last).
If you really can't figure out any other way, just put it above the belay device and let them know to be very controlled or it will likely lock-up tightly.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Nov 7, 2008, 10:38 PM)
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suilenroc
Nov 7, 2008, 10:37 PM
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It wasn't dangerous advice.
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spikeddem
Nov 7, 2008, 10:39 PM
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suilenroc wrote: It wasn't dangerous advice.
Do you wear a seat belt, despite how properly you drive?
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ptlong
Nov 7, 2008, 10:45 PM
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That's not a very good analogy.
Better: Do you drive a car that automatically stops if you are rendered unconscious?
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HappinessIsWinning
Nov 7, 2008, 10:50 PM
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suilenroc wrote: It wasn't dangerous advice.
There were 14 accidents posted, this year, on this site alone involving rappelling. Telling people not to bother teaching someone how to use a back-up is very dangerous advice. Rappelling is very dangerous, you can be killed. Therefore it is reasonable to say your advice is dangerous. It's like telling someone how to pull the main parachute without mentioning the back-up parachute:
http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related
also make sure to see what happens when shown proper safety technique:
http://www.youtube.com/...zqPwLpi60Ag&NR=1
edited to add: this year
(This post was edited by HappinessIsWinning on Nov 7, 2008, 11:17 PM)
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patto
Nov 7, 2008, 10:56 PM
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Beginner have been known to get themselves in trouble with autoblocks. It is best not to complicate things. I have seen beginners stuck on an abseil for half and hour because the leader gave them a backup.
If you have a beginner then give them a firemans belay. Put the beginner(s) on the line and the YOU abseil down first.
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spikeddem
Nov 7, 2008, 10:59 PM
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ptlong wrote: That's not a very good analogy. Better: Do you drive a car that automatically stops if you are rendered unconscious?
I highly disagree. The point in my analogy is that proper execution has nothing to do with whether or not safety precautions should be made.
He argues that if someone is rappelling correctly, then there is no need for a back-up. My analogy more succinctly addresses his point.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Nov 7, 2008, 11:01 PM)
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HappinessIsWinning
Nov 7, 2008, 11:00 PM
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patto wrote: Beginner have been known to get themselves in trouble with autoblocks. It is best not to complicate things. I have seen beginners stuck on an abseil for half and hour because the leader gave them a backup. If you have a beginner then give them a firemans belay. Put the beginner(s) on the line and the YOU abseil down first.
Having them use the technique, and teaching them it are two different things. Once again back to the skydiving analogy,.. You may teach them how to use the back-up parachute without them pulling that cord first.
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suilenroc
Nov 7, 2008, 11:20 PM
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HappinessIsWinning wrote: suilenroc wrote: It wasn't dangerous advice. There were 14 accidents posted, this year, on this site alone involving rappelling. Telling people not to bother teaching someone how to use a back-up is very dangerous advice. Rappelling is very dangerous, you can be killed. Therefore it is reasonable to say your advice is dangerous. It's like telling someone how to pull the main parachute without mentioning the back-up parachute: http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related also make sure to see what happens when shown proper safety technique: http://www.youtube.com/...zqPwLpi60Ag&NR=1 edited to add: this year
It isn't dangerous advice dude.
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spikeddem
Nov 7, 2008, 11:31 PM
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suilenroc wrote: HappinessIsWinning wrote: suilenroc wrote: It wasn't dangerous advice. There were 14 accidents posted, this year, on this site alone involving rappelling. Telling people not to bother teaching someone how to use a back-up is very dangerous advice. Rappelling is very dangerous, you can be killed. Therefore it is reasonable to say your advice is dangerous. It's like telling someone how to pull the main parachute without mentioning the back-up parachute: http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related also make sure to see what happens when shown proper safety technique: http://www.youtube.com/...zqPwLpi60Ag&NR=1 edited to add: this year It isn't dangerous advice dude.
Trolling like this in the beginners form should get one warning, then a banz after that.
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climbingaggie03
Nov 7, 2008, 11:58 PM
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spikeddem wrote: suilenroc wrote: It wasn't dangerous advice. Do you wear a seat belt, despite how properly you drive?
No, I rarely wear a seatbelt, but I do back up my rappels.
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suilenroc
Nov 8, 2008, 1:44 AM
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In reply to: Stop offering dangerous advice. It's not a light topic, and it doesn't make sense to be light about it.
There is nothing more or less dangerous about rappelling without a "backup". The most important thing is whether the person knows what they are doing! So a beginner, needs to learn the basics. Simplicity is key! This may include some type of backup but in MY OPINION i do not think it is necessary... When i speak of backup i am referring to the method that the OP was talking about. I suggested using a Fireman's Belay! This adds the security of a Backup that most of you are CRYING about without ADDING TO THE CONFUSION OF RAPPELLING WITH A BUNCH OF GEAR.
Lighten up, your alive... for now.
ADD: No, i do not wear a seat belt... Unless the driver is more drunk than me!
(This post was edited by suilenroc on Nov 8, 2008, 1:47 AM)
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DFCLIMB
Nov 8, 2008, 2:14 AM
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Since the Bod does not have a belay loop, you can extend the rappel device - two (one for redundancy) shoulder length slings girth hitched through leg loop and belt; then attach rappel device. Then locking biner set-up for belay (leg loop and belt), and attach the autoblock below device on locking biner.
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spikeddem
Nov 8, 2008, 2:14 AM
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suilenroc wrote: In reply to: Stop offering dangerous advice. It's not a light topic, and it doesn't make sense to be light about it. There is nothing more or less dangerous about rappelling without a "backup". The most important thing is whether the person knows what they are doing! So a beginner, needs to learn the basics. Simplicity is key! This may include some type of backup but in MY OPINION i do not think it is necessary... When i speak of backup i am referring to the method that the OP was talking about. I suggested using a Fireman's Belay! ADD: No, i do not wear a seat belt... Unless the driver is more drunk than me!
If it is no less dangerous to go without a back up why do you bother with a firemans belay? That will just add to the complexity.
(I'm challenging his logic. I completely disagree with the argument that a back up-less rappel is just as safe as a backed up rappel.)
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suilenroc
Nov 8, 2008, 2:33 AM
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Challenge my logic... hahah, dude your pretty funny.
Fireman's Belay adds the mental security to the whole game. Simple. Done. The topic is whether this guys harness would be compatible with his autoblock setup... My suggestion is valid. I have used that harness quite extensively and would not be a proponent for going with the setup he suggested. Sounds like he might take someone out who has never done a rappel... SO the best advice is to tell him to not worry with an autoblock, put them on a fireman's belay, be safe, don't die. hahah, i bet you always tie into two ropes with two separate belayers as well! I am donesky....
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stagg54
Nov 8, 2008, 2:34 AM
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A firemans is just as good a backup as an autoblock and much less complicated for beginners. There is not much they can do to screw it up.
There is nothing unsafe about giving a beginner a fireman's belay instead of making them use an autoblock.
All of you armchair climbers need to lighten and get out and actually climb something.
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