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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 1:32 AM
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Currently I am shaving weight off my pack, trying to get near 20 lbs for a 3 day push on Denali. Here are my plans for shelter/sleep.....
-Bibler Winter Bivy .5625 lbs
-Western Mountaineering Puma DL -20 4 lbs (w/compression sack)
-3/4 z-rest .7 lbs
-pack under feet
-snow cave 0.00 lbs
TOTAL=5.2625 lbs
I am looking for the warmest, trimmest, lightest sleeping pad there is. I am not looking for comfort, only insulation. The ZRest is warm and comfy, but I can go lighter. I have been searching the adventure racing and ultralight backpacking websites, but cant get the answers I want. Has anyone used the High Country Mt. Hood (10 oz, 72''), or the High Country Mt. Washington (7 oz, 60''). What about KMart or Walmart varieties. Some are as light as 8 oz for 72''. What about the "Blue Lite Pad." Mark Twight recommends sticky, closed cell foam. What is that yellow stuff he and his cohorts carry? I'm sure they've tested everything, and it is the best. Any ideas would be appreciated.
Jeremy
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bradhill
Nov 13, 2002, 2:36 AM
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Your pad is a bad place to skimp. Take a lighter bag instead. On snow and ice it's a far more critical part of your sleep system. You'll see folks go out with pads and no bags, but never the other way around. There's a reason. Give yourself at least a 4 R value between you and a glacier. Ridge rests have the best weight/warmth ratio.
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 6:02 AM
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4R is two ridgeresters isn't it? I have never carried, nor seen anyone carry two pads on any serious alpine climb. I am skimping everywhere so I can climb fast and maybe only spend one night or even half a night on route. I need the one pad that is warmest/thinnest/lightest- that will give me a little rest, but no comfort. It is out there somewhere. It just may be the ZRest all along.
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 6:06 AM
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Also, lets not forget the rope, clothing, and pack as insulation too.
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coconutz
Nov 13, 2002, 7:56 AM
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I don't understand why you are hauling that huge sleeping bag around. If you are trying to shave some serious weight I'd look at your bag (not that it is a bad one, one of the lightest -20 sacs out). I assume that you are taking a belay jkt (baffled no doubt, maybe a TNF Baltoro, or a Marmot 8000m or the FF rock an ice) why not buy a half bag? Or try a different combination of jkt, bag/blanket combos to figure out what the lightest set up is?
If there is anyone that knows lightweight down stuff it is Nunatak. They make rockin' stuff, a little in the pricy side but well worth it. You can have them make you alomst anything custom. Check em' out at http://www.nunatakusa.com/index.htm
Also Jim Nelson, owner of Pro Mountain Sports in Seattle has a great website with a mucho amount of info. They have great info on useing your layering clothing as a sleeping system. Which if it were me (and it might be in a few years) I'd do it that way. Check out the site at http://promountainsports.com/.
So in the end, if this is one of those situations where you spent $600 on a bag and don't want to buy another one and etc. etc. I'd say that you are coming pretty close to you minimum weight limit. However.......If you are serious about doing the Cassin in 48 hours are whatever (I assume you are, after all you gave us pad weight to the nearest 1/10,000 of a pound) I would sell the WM Bag and invest in something ligter or keep it and nut up the cash for the lighter system.
Hope this helps
[ This Message was edited by: coconutz on 2002-11-13 00:14 ]
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 1:35 PM
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Half bag not an option. My parka is a light (1.3 lbs) primaloft, far from warm enough alone. The bag is my insurance policy, I know I can survive anything by crawling inside. It packs down to volleyball size. Not a money issue, I just feel safest and most viable with a warm bag. I also want warm ground insulation but I am looking for the best R factor for the weight.
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bradhill
Nov 13, 2002, 5:05 PM
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The point is exactly that if you do need to hunker down and survive, when sleeping on snow, ground insulation is the most important thing and provides much more survival value per ounce than a down bag.
On snow, an 18oz pad and 2.5 lb bag is warmer than an 8 oz pad and a 4 lb bag. Really.
You cannot underestimate its importance. Why do weight-reducing extremists take closed cell pads? They're not lighter than a similarly insulating therm-a-rest. It's because if you pop your therm-a-rest, you die, no matter what sleeping bag you have.
Pretty much until you get to around R value 6, a pad will always provide a better warmth-to-weight ratio than a sleeping bag. As soon as you lie down, you crush and lose all the insulating value of your bag, and the biggest source of heat transfer is the solid ice beneath you, taking your weight.
Take a close look at the yellow pads in those Twight photos. Look really close. They're pretty thick, eh? And full-length, too.
If you really are sparing no expense for a lightweight system, look at Big Agnes bags. They have down on top and a sleeve in the bottom for a pad. With the weight you'll save you can take a full length and a 3/4 ridge rest trimmed to a mummy profile and be a lot warmer.
If it were me, I'd go further and cut up, rotate and glue back together the 3/4 length pad so the ridges were on a perpendicular bias to the full length pad.
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 6:02 PM
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You guys are misunderstanding me here. I am not saying I want a lower R value. I want a higher R value, with the lightest pad possible. I know that a pad is crucial. The most crucial. I am not considering going sans pad, as that would be foolish. What I want is the pad with the highest R/weight ratio there is. If it weighs less than 1 pound- I will consder it, if less than 10 oz, that's what I'm after.
Jeremy
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kman
Nov 13, 2002, 6:35 PM
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Are you going to do up a trip report when you get back? I am intersted to hear how you do.
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rockprodigy
Nov 13, 2002, 6:38 PM
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Bradhill is right, you should bring two pads. I used a 6' ridgerest and a 4' thermarest and it worked well. There's 50 other things you can skimp on to save weight, don't skimp on your pad. If you have to, cut 40 feet off your rope.
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 7:42 PM
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rockprodigy,
Your sleep system is curiously omitted from your gear list on your NA Classics trip report, I was wondering what you did about bag/pad.
Keep in mind, I am not bringing a tent, just a 9oz bivy- to me this justifies the warmer bag. Also, I have slept on snow/ice many times and a single ZRest has been perfect with my warm bag. I have never owned or slept on inflatables so I will not start now. I would consider carrying a half pad, or the folded "frame" pad from my pack that I usually discard- in order to supplement my main CCF pad.
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rockprodigy
Nov 13, 2002, 8:23 PM
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We had grand ideas of going super light ourselves, then we got to the mountain and got scared. We were thinking we were gonna do it one push, etc., we were only going to bring two sleeping bags for 3 people, and spoon if we had to bivy, which we weren't planning on doing anyway, but the truth is, if this is your first time in AK, you're going to get there, see the mountain, realize how cold it gets and start ADDING stuff to your pack. You'll start wondering if you can REALLY survive on 8 oz. of fuel per day, and if you can REALLY do the route in 3 days, and if you can REALLY survive a 4-5 day storm with no food if s--- should happen. My advice is bring the extra pad up to 14k (are you planning to go up there?) then you can make the decision when you have more info.
PS I used a 0 degree NF polarguard bag, I was warm every night except the night we spent at 17k, and we had PERFECT weather. Are you still going in May? Go in June...late June! It get's freakin cold at night.
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bradhill
Nov 13, 2002, 8:38 PM
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In climbing 110, (oct 88) Jonathan Waterman tested out 27 different pad systems and recommended a stack of two blue foam pads.
The most thermally efficient system I've found stats on is the ridge rest, at 100gm/R at 3/4 length. Link rests are 109gm/R and the absolute lightest commercially sold pad around. A Z-rest is 130gm/R at 3/4 length. I haven't ever found R values for the standard blue foamy.
And you're missing the point. That big bag is not the insurance policy you think it is without enough ground insulation, which is lighter anyway for the amount of warmth you get.
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dynomaster
Nov 13, 2002, 8:55 PM
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What is an R value?
Dyno On
Andy
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jhump
Nov 13, 2002, 9:16 PM
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bradhill,
"....without enough ground insulation...". Exactly. That is why I want enough, and no more. Enough to me is enough to fall asleep on when I need to, and not waste precious calories to the ice. It is not enough to comfortably ride out a 5 day storm. That is the mentality of this lightweight ascent. If stuff goes wrong (storm, injury, climb too slow, etc) then we are screwed, and must descend. That is the commitment I'm making. Retreat is the method for waiting out a storm. I never go up something I cant descend, so I will descend before the storm comes, or even in the jaws of the storm.
rockprodigy,
Yes, we are going to 14K and probably to 17K to stash supplies after we come off the Cassin. We may even summit the WButt, if we feel good. I will probably take two ZRests, and my pack's "frame" pad up there, and trim down for the Cassin.
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bradhill
Nov 13, 2002, 9:18 PM
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An R value is a measure of insulative value or resistance to heat flow. Higher is better.
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rockprodigy
Nov 13, 2002, 10:46 PM
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That's good. You'll have plently of time to figure out what works when you're on the mountain. Unfortunately I'm not current on all the latest tech stats, so I won't reccomend anything. Just keep in mind that it's easy to plan "light and fast" from a warm cubicle, but don't pare down your stuff so much that when you get on the mountain you can't add stuff if you decide your goals were too ambitious.
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hallm
Nov 13, 2002, 11:55 PM
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Not sure if you might have considered this but,
some packs come with a removable bivy pad that acts as part of the frame. The one I have is TNF MG 35, although it comes in bigger sizes. You may want to take a look at that option and see if it will suffice alone or in combination with a lighter pad.
I ended up having to bivy at 12k in the Sierra's last October and was very grateful that my pack had a pad. I wasn't warm as all I had was EW polypro, pile layer and shells, plus a emergency blanket, but I did get some sleep.
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mwills
Nov 19, 2002, 2:11 AM
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jhump,
i'm pretty sure those yellow pads twight uses are Zotte pads made with Evazote foam. the only place i've found these pads is at http://www.mec.ca. hope this helps.
matt
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