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critterdude542
Nov 30, 2008, 2:00 AM
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hey there, i'm a fairly new climber and i was just wondering
what is the main reason to use a quickdraw instead of just a carabiner through the bolt.
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msiwoski
Nov 30, 2008, 2:19 AM
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Hard to clip and rope gets really close to the wall, causing more rope drag are two reasons that come to mind
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zeke_sf
Nov 30, 2008, 2:21 AM
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critterdude542 wrote: hey there, i'm a fairly new climber and i was just wondering what is the main reason to use a quickdraw instead of just a carabiner through the bolt.
It's just a big money-making scheme! There is no reason!
Actually, I've never really thought too much about it, but there are several I can think of:
1) rope drag is gonna be a pain in the butt for any but the most directly bolted lines
2) you have one carabiner doing two things, anchoring you to the bolt and having your rope run through it. is that one carabiner going to be aligned perfectly for both tasks? which end of the basket are you going to want to have to what? will all the rope tug you'll get (and you'll get plenty with no dogbone extending the carabiner) turn the carabiner around, somehow disengaging the gate from the bolt?
Again, those are just two problem areas off the top of my head that may or may not be the explanation for the overwhelming predominance of quickdraws as we know them. It's an interesting question I'd also like to see somebody knowledgeable answer.
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notapplicable
Nov 30, 2008, 2:30 AM
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This was posted in the "Dumbest things you've done while climbing" thread.
skiclimb wrote: One of my early sport leads I didnt have quickdraws and was just using a single biner. It was a vey short route 3, 1/4" bolts on a route with a couple low end .10 moves ending with a right-hand traverse to the anchor. After the second bolt I heard my belayer gasp looked down to see that one of the biners had come un-clipped. Made me a bit nervous but I could see the moves and felt better finishing than trying to downclimb... Eventually go to the rap anchor looked down and saw that ALL THREE BOLTS had come unclipped!!! Woulda been a 30ft deck onto boulders!!!
Sounds like a pretty good reason not to use single biners to me.
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Hennessey
Nov 30, 2008, 2:35 AM
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The main reason is:
cause the climbing companies tell us to
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lagwagonpcp
Nov 30, 2008, 4:09 AM
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i dont use biners or draws. every time i get to a bolt i untie, thread the rope thru and retie.
dont do that, but i asume you wouldnt unless your a special class of dumb. draws really are not that expenive esp. if you buy packs of em. get em, you will use them, they make matters a bit easier if nothing else and you can break em down and use the components.the nice people on rc.com have given a lot of goood reasons. if those arent enuff, hhere one...
how fxing sweet do they look?Q!?!?!!? draws are banging bro i neeed more drawwwss badddd
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coastal_climber
Nov 30, 2008, 4:29 AM
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Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope.
>Cam
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rtwilli4
Nov 30, 2008, 6:38 AM
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all of the reasons above are good... the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners.
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mikebee
Nov 30, 2008, 7:05 AM
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I'm not sure that a dogbone would add much dynamism to the system. They are generally either made of spectra/dyneema (a perfectly static material), or nylon, which when used in the type of weave found on dogbones, is also static.
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USnavy
Nov 30, 2008, 7:16 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners.
That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch.
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socalclimber
Nov 30, 2008, 12:18 PM
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Clipping the bolt with one biner and rope is a really bad idea. The biggest problem is that there is no "play" or flexibiliity in the system. You can easily cross load the biner against the hanger during a fall and possibly break the biner.
Another problem, if the bolt is old, like a manky 1/4 inch, or some of those "shudder" leeper style hangers, they can break as well.
Use draws or a sling. Good thing to question though.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Nov 30, 2008, 12:19 PM)
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coolcat83
Nov 30, 2008, 3:43 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Clipping the bolt with one biner and rope is a really bad idea. The biggest problem is that there is no "play" or flexibiliity in the system. You can easily cross load the biner against the hanger during a fall and possibly break the biner. Another problem, if the bolt is old, like a manky 1/4 inch, or some of those "shudder" leeper style hangers, they can break as well. Use draws or a sling. Good thing to question though.
correct
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zeke_sf
Nov 30, 2008, 5:12 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: Another reason is so you have a dedicated draw biner and rope biner. Wouldn't want that notched biner cutting/abrading your rope. >Cam
Personally, I don't buy that argument.*
*Another reason for Rockie not to climb with Zeke is he doesn't abide by the rope biner / pro biner practice taught by lead climbing course instructors everywhere.
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angry
Nov 30, 2008, 6:07 PM
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USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch.
I was going to say that.
The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal.
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socalclimber
Nov 30, 2008, 7:25 PM
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angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal.
Yup, agreed. I've screwed myself before on a hard aid lead, complete with expando thin nailing and was clipping directly into the biners.
I was not a happy camper. Especially since I had two hook moves in a row...
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climbbaja
Nov 30, 2008, 7:27 PM
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In reply to: what is the main reason to use a quickdraw instead of just a carabiner through the bolt?
I suppose it takes an old-timer to give the answer to this.
A single carabiner will cause rope drag, particularly when weighted, thus trapping the rope between the carabiner and the rock.
BITD, we used two connected carabiners, with no nylon in between. Quickdraws were not invented yet. The problem with that is one of safety. Try this so that you will understand: Connect two carabiners together. Grab each end of the carabiner "chain" and twist 180 degrees. They will unclip from each other quite easily. Not good!
(This post was edited by climbbaja on Nov 30, 2008, 7:29 PM)
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ja1484
Nov 30, 2008, 7:45 PM
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angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal.
Same...I've done it in a pinch because it's better than nothing, but it's best avoided.
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robdotcalm
Nov 30, 2008, 8:27 PM
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angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal.
One can use cams and nuts as quick draws if nothing else available.
r.c
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seeds
Nov 30, 2008, 9:06 PM
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i was on this route a few months ago and underestimated the length of this awesome, clean right facing corner. it was a hard pitch and wanted to get it clean, so i took about half the rack we had. about half way up i ran out of cams so i was dropping stoppers anywhere i could. then i ran out of draws. so there i am about 25 feet from the anchors , a bit run out, pumped and with nothing on my harness but a single biner with about 6 stoppers on it. dropped stopper, clipped the single biner with the other 5 stoppers still hanging from it, and ran it out to the anchors. seemed to work fine. fun story.
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socalclimber
Nov 30, 2008, 9:53 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal. One can use cams and nuts as quick draws if nothing else available. r.c
Yes and no. No if you only have small wires like HB offsets or rp's. I wouldn't trust those.
Good catch though.
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tradrenn
Nov 30, 2008, 10:00 PM
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climbbaja wrote: In reply to: what is the main reason to use a quickdraw instead of just a carabiner through the bolt? I suppose it takes an old-timer to give the answer to this. A single carabiner will cause rope drag, particularly when weighted, thus trapping the rope between the carabiner and the rock. BITD, we used two connected carabiners, with no nylon in between. Quickdraws were not invented yet. The problem with that is one of safety. Try this so that you will understand: Connect two carabiners together. Grab each end of the carabiner "chain" and twist 180 degrees. They will unclip from each other quite easily. Not good!
Thank you.
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rtwilli4
Nov 30, 2008, 10:06 PM
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USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch.
I guess I should not have said "much more dynamic" but do they really do nothing for the forces applied to the biners and the bolt? Doesn't just having the dogbone there spread the force out between two biners and the dogbone instead of having it all go onto one biner?
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angry
Nov 30, 2008, 10:16 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I guess I should not have said "much more dynamic" but do they really do nothing for the forces applied to the biners and the bolt? Doesn't just having the dogbone there spread the force out between two biners and the dogbone instead of having it all go onto one biner?
No, they are inline, not parallel.
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robdotcalm
Nov 30, 2008, 10:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: robdotcalm wrote: angry wrote: USnavy wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: the first one that came to my mind is that the dogbone makes a fall much more dynamic. It lowers the force exerted on the piece of gear/bolt and the two biners. That’s a completely incorrect statement. Those dogybones do not stretch. I was going to say that. The other day I was on a route I'd never tried before. I didn't really get my gear beta right. I thought it'd be more cams than nuts and I hadn't seen the pitons either. I had a pretty healthy set of cams but not nearly enough draws to utilize the pitons and nuts. I took biners off everything I didn't use on a little stance halfway up and just clipped in with single biners. It worked but no, it's not ideal. One can use cams and nuts as quick draws if nothing else available. r.c Yes and no. No if you only have small wires like HB offsets or rp's. I wouldn't trust those. Good catch though.
I wouldn't trust them either.
r.c
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Goo
Dec 1, 2008, 4:52 AM
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it has all been said already.
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