The supposed benefit to the Fig.8 eyeknot vs. the supposed difficulty of the variety of Bowlines to be recognized as "correct" owes a lot to the variety of Fig.8 configurations deemed to pass muster, and the poor presentation of the Bowline (typical images show the wrong side as "front", i.e.).
And the supposed merit of the bowline is ease of untying. I have had some welded fig. 8's but, worse comes to worse, you pry a 'biner in there and yard the knot out with that. I was thinking of that as an interesting permutation to this thread though: How many people have switched from fig. 8 to bowline use? I've thought of doing it but then I realize it would probably never feel right to me. And, I suppose, vice versa for anybody who tied in with the bowline or any of the other knots people have used. Personally, my favorite knot really is the fig. 9.
I use a Bowline almost exclusively. I first learned with a fig-8 but now using one feels weird. Its pretty rare that I will tie in with an 8 anymore. I'm sure I could go back to an 8 and it would feel right again, but I really don't want to.
I'm with chossy, I always use a double bowline finished off with a double fishermans. I can do that knot with my eyes closed but if I am teaching a beginner I always teach the figure of eight.
theres too many replies to read them all right now (im lazy). But i want three votes in the poll. I always tie mine correctly. I have seen others tie it incorrectly. Pancakes.
I didn't vote because I don't want to jinx myself... I tried to use the double bowline w/ a yose finish but my main climbing partner wasn't familiar with it so I went back to the figure8 with a double fisherman's finish. The fig 8 does weld it's self with old ropes, like the ones at the gym, kinda sucks.
And the supposed merit of the bowline is ease of untying.
The supposed merit of the bowline used to be that everyone already knew how to tie one. It was a standard knot for every day use. It was also the knot that allowed you to tie directly into the rope, before swamis were standard.
As best as I can tell, folks today are too lazy to bother tying their shoes, so I don't think there's any knot that we could rely on the standard average n00b to know before they skip into a gym.
I expect industrial velcro to emerge as the tie-in of choice any day now.
I'm with chossy, I always use a double bowline finished off with a double fishermans.
That would be a "Strangle knot": the Dbl.Fish (DFK) is a rope-joining knot composed of Strangle knots in each line around the other, pulled together in opposition and locking (aka "Grapevine bend"). We can do with another knot name for a distinct knot and step a little out of the swamp of confusion/ambiguity here, bit by bit!
I'm with chossy, I always use a double bowline finished off with a double fishermans.
That would be a "Strangle knot": the Dbl.Fish (DFK) is a rope-joining knot composed of Strangle knots in each line around the other, pulled together in opposition and locking (aka "Grapevine bend"). We can do with another knot name for a distinct knot and step a little out of the swamp of confusion/ambiguity here, bit by bit!
Like a fisherman knot? Like you tie a fish hook on with? 2 times around and pass though the loops. Or with 13 raps it's a hangsman knot. (for hanging people).
I'm with chossy, I always use a double bowline finished off with a double fishermans. I can do that knot with my eyes closed but if I am teaching a beginner I always teach the figure of eight.
I also use a double bowline finished with a yosemite. I have a friend who uses the single bowline with a double fish and he climbs 13's. I bet if I start using his know I'll climb 13's too!
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch. So why not use it? Just because it's easier to untie a bowline?
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch.
Testing in the early 1980s showed single bowlines slightly weaker, and double bowlines slightly stronger, than figure eights. But there's tons of weird tests by various folks and widly varying types of ropes, more than enough to keep knobbers geeking for years.
Here's a window into a world that I wish I didn't know existed:
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch. So why not use it? Just because it's easier to untie a bowline?
To start with, there has never been a documented case of any knot breaking at the harness so strength isn't relevant. The bowline is easier to tie, harder to screw up (can't be tied incorrectly without falling apart), and easier to untie than a figure 8. The only problems with bowlines occur when it isn't finished with a backup of some sort to prevent loosening.
besides, i climb on a double bowline, and it's just not that easy for someone who doesn't know the knot to see if it's done right. you might say, "yup looks good par'ner!" and in reality it's wrong. how safe is that??
Oooooh........
[whispers]He is so advanced!!!![/whispers]
Its pretty easy to tell if its tied incorrectly.
Chances are that your partner, no matter how inexperienced can tell if you have tied some sort of knot and backed it up rather than let you start climbing with a knot that is only half tied or not tied at all..
Chances are that your partner, no matter how inexperienced can tell if you have tied some sort of knot and backed it up rather than let you start climbing with a knot that is only half tied or not tied at all..
i'm still trying to figure out if you're for real. or
at the risk of stooping to your level. you do know that most people know how to tie a bowline when they're, like, 11, right? i was shown a bowline as a great climbing knot, therefore i use it. it does not make me advanced, it makes me a climber who likes to climb on a bowline. much like your 20 million posts makes you an avid internet user, not an advanced climber... i've climbed with many people how look at a bowline and shrug and say that they have no idea if that's a good knot or just a mess of rope.
the point, which you are all trying so hard to miss, is that *i* check *my* knot before i grab the start holds. every. single. time. if you want to have a look, go crazy. if you want me to watch your back, hey, i got it. but i don't NEED or RELY on SOMEONE ELSE to make sure i'm safe.
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch.
Testing in the early 1980s showed single bowlines slightly weaker, and double bowlines slightly stronger, than figure eights. But there's tons of weird tests by various folks and widly varying types of ropes, more than enough to keep knobbers geeking for years.
Here's a window into a world that I wish I didn't know existed:
the point, which you are all trying so hard to miss, is that *i* check *my* knot before i grab the start holds. every. single. time. if you want to have a look, go crazy. if you want me to watch your back, hey, i got it. but i don't NEED or RELY on SOMEONE ELSE to make sure i'm safe.
Although the SOP for my partners and I is to double check each other, I gotta agree with you here. Once one of us has left the ground everything that happens above and below is up to the individual and it is their lone attention to detail that will keep both people safe.
I think partners should double check when ever possible but the individual should perform the task as though they were the only one involved.
So what view do most of you take on leaving a 8 loose and with a back up knot so it will help "soften" the catch. Do you crank the 8 tight?
Can this be done safely with a bowline?
Never. The obvious potential downsides would radically outweigh the negligible benefits. Handtight is nothing compared to the tightening that happens in a fall. Always hand tight, since I don't want it to creep. And always retie after a fall. Altho I don't fall much these days.
you do know that most people know how to tie a bowline when they're, like, 11, right?
That was a joke, right? Most people wouldn't know a bowline from most other knots except perhaps the one they tie their shoes with. I suspect that probably close to half of climbers (not even including boulderers) probably couldn't identify a properly tied bowline or tie one right.
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch.
Testing in the early 1980s showed single bowlines slightly weaker, and double bowlines slightly stronger, than figure eights. But there's tons of weird tests by various folks and widly varying types of ropes, more than enough to keep knobbers geeking for years.
In all the test reports I've seen, none has shown adequate detail to enable repeat testing; seldom, e.g., is the way the Fig.8 is dressed/set and which end is bearing load revealed. I've seen contrary indications for the Dbl.Bowline, but there, too, a key factor would be the dressing/setting--i.p., the tightness of the collar. But there are simply Bowline variations that put a third diameter through that central, high-loaded loop, and that should be a plus.
You're free to close your eyes. But why, then, ... here!?
In reply to:
So what view do most of you take on leaving a 8 loose and with a back up knot so it will help "soften" the catch. Do you crank the 8 tight?
I'll 2nd the earlier rejection, though note that "obvious" mustn't apply or the question wouldn't have been asked. Dave Merchant has cited differences in the strength of e.g. a Fig.8 eyeknot between slow-pull and shock loading and mused that it results from heat generated from the greater movement of rope getting compressed in that more involved knot. In any case, the amount of energy absorption in the knot is relatively small for much of a fall (length). And, yes, there are some Bowline variations that can be pretty loose and with a fair amount of material involved.
Ok, So I have been told that the 8 puts the least amount of crimp on any one point in the knot and that makes it stronger. Things always brake at the crimp/pinch.
Testing in the early 1980s showed single bowlines slightly weaker, and double bowlines slightly stronger, than figure eights. But there's tons of weird tests by various folks and widly varying types of ropes, more than enough to keep knobbers geeking for years.
In all the test reports I've seen, none has shown adequate detail to enable repeat testing; seldom, e.g., is the way the Fig.8 is dressed/set and which end is bearing load revealed. I've seen contrary indications for the Dbl.Bowline, but there, too, a key factor would be the dressing/setting--i.p., the tightness of the collar. But there are simply Bowline variations that put a third diameter through that central, high-loaded loop, and that should be a plus.
You're free to close your eyes. But why, then, ... here!?
In reply to:
So what view do most of you take on leaving a 8 loose and with a back up knot so it will help "soften" the catch. Do you crank the 8 tight?
I'll 2nd the earlier rejection, though note that "obvious" mustn't apply or the question wouldn't have been asked. Dave Merchant has cited differences in the strength of e.g. a Fig.8 eyeknot between slow-pull and shock loading and mused that it results from heat generated from the greater movement of rope getting compressed in that more involved knot. In any case, the amount of energy absorption in the knot is relatively small for much of a fall (length). And, yes, there are some Bowline variations that can be pretty loose and with a fair amount of material involved.
*kN*
I have always used a 8 and make it tight myself and always will but I see people leaving it loose all the time. I didn't really ask for myself as much as to just get it out there for others.
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