A woman who is a mother, who I have met(although only at a slideshow she was presenting). The article also features a woman I know, who is alos a mother, and whom I see out climbing with her daughter on occasion.

Their names are in the article, Clausti.....

Susan E.B. Schwartz is a freelance writer, also the author of Hans Kraus' biography.

- what the fuck is with her calling Modern Times 5.10. pretty damn sure the book gives that 5.8

- "1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty incompatible." not climbing and parenthood, just climbing and motherhood. dads can die and it's ok.

from that article she seems like the kind of woman who goes around trumpeting how she's found her whole life's purpose in being a mother, and god forbid the sperm donor take some responsibility for anything- he might fuck it up. and then acts like a martyr when she has two plates of responsibility because she won't share.

Why not ask her, or the editor of the piece? I surely can't answer that question. Both Dick and Swain give it 5.8+.

I dunno... Of all the women I have climbed with:
- one had a grown step-daughter
- one climbed until she got pregnant. At 45, she stopped climbing immediately because she wouldn't take the risk of losing the baby. She's climbed a few times since baby was born, but finds it really tough to coordinate child care, make time for herself, get partners and all that. The issue of having lost her climbing head is up there too, in making it tough to get out.
- The featured mom, Jannette, is the 3rd mom climber I know. She's currently not happy because that job that made it all possible, which she talked about in the article, has unexpectedly ended. She's pretty freaked out about that.

Every single other woman I have ever climbed with has never had kids, and I have climbed with a lot of women.


Susan is not the type as you have painted(life's purpose as a mother/martyr). But I know, when one hasn't met a person in reality it can be easy to ascribe traits to them which may not be accurate. Happens all the time.

...

And - never having had children, I obviously can't speak from experience. But from the moms I do know(climber or not) it is pretty much the usual thing that, when they have a child or children, those kids just DO come first.

And it isn't about martyring themselves. It's more about unconditional love. True, too - I have known a lot of dads(climbers and not) who love their kids just as unconditionally, but.....they do tend to keep their hobbies up, even if at a different level.

Maybe some of the fathers on rc.com, and those who are married to women who also climb(or did climb) have some input.

There's an article in Climbing this month called "8 confessions of a climbing mom", the conclusions of which state:

"1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty much incompatible, and 2) if your life's goal, now and later, is to climb as much as possible, you probably shouldn't become a mom-odds are high you'll be miserable, and so will your children."

Ouch. Harsh.

Now, I'm not a mom so I will readily admit that I don't know what it's like to try to balance climbing and motherhood. I'm really hopeful though that my husband and I will be like Don and Phyl Munday, who had a kid and still managed to do tons of first ascents in B.C., and that other people won't judge me saying that I'm making my kids miserable.

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man. "8 confessions of a climbing dad", or "Climbing and fatherhood are incompatible". Why do women allow themselves to get sucked into this stupid guilt game, and go around pointing the "You're a bad mom" finger?

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

(and yes I remember a similar discussion about breastfeeding at the crag a long time ago... thought I would start a new thread though related to the article).

This conclusion is pretty appalling. Basically I agree with everything that you said.

Even if you had to climb less for a few years at some age they do get old enough to go climbing/hiking/be outside also.

I would hope that it is not suggesting that mommies should only be mommies as opposed to some how finding the time to also have jobs or keep themselves healthy, etc.

I also do not have kids. If some reason I ever did though, I expect there to be a Dad who would share in childhood tasks.

A woman who is a mother, who I have met(although only at a slideshow she was presenting). The article also features a woman I know, who is alos a mother, and whom I see out climbing with her daughter on occasion.

One thing that just occurred to me is that at least Jannette(featured in the article) climbs trad, for the most part. I'm pretty sure Susan does too, as her Kraus biography has reference points with her climbing at the Gunks.

Perhaps the point of view is unintentionally skewed more toward the multipitch/gear climber? I am not trying to sport bash(I have enjoyed it the few times I've done it.). The fact does remain that sport and gear are two different animals. I don't really read/hear too much about sport climbers considering the reaper as being that third that's always in the party. Much more so for people who climb trad.

In addition to all the subjectively ridiculous internalized sexism that article is frosted with (Moms shouldn't climb, but hey Dads are fine! Because only Moms do the important stuff for kids!), you let her get away with calling Modern Times 5.10. Hey editor, the route is extremely well known, and it's 5.8. Sorry that she had to bump up the grade so that she could call top-roping a 2 pitch route "epic," but you should have caught that.

-christina austin

There's an article in Climbing this month called "8 confessions of a climbing mom", the conclusions of which state:

"1) Climbing and motherhood are pretty much incompatible, and 2) if your life's goal, now and later, is to climb as much as possible, you probably shouldn't become a mom-odds are high you'll be miserable, and so will your children."

Ouch. Harsh.

Now, I'm not a mom so I will readily admit that I don't know what it's like to try to balance climbing and motherhood. I'm really hopeful though that my husband and I will be like Don and Phyl Munday, who had a kid and still managed to do tons of first ascents in B.C., and that other people won't judge me saying that I'm making my kids miserable.

It pisses me off that you would never see an article like this written by a man. "8 confessions of a climbing dad", or "Climbing and fatherhood are incompatible". Why do women allow themselves to get sucked into this stupid guilt game, and go around pointing the "You're a bad mom" finger?

Anyway, any thoughts? Especially from climbing dads and climbing moms...

(and yes I remember a similar discussion about breastfeeding at the crag a long time ago... thought I would start a new thread though related to the article).

Hi Christina,

We were well aware of the old grade of 5.8. A new book pegged it at 5.10, so we went with that after some discussion.

Matt

Hey Matt,

What book?

I had the old Mc Carthy ones at the office, as did Susan at home — Modern Times there is 5.8, you’re right; Susan referenced the new Extreme Angles one: http://extremeangles.com/gunks.htm

We’re a very small editorial staff, but I do my best to fact-check things like that.

Matt

You know, I actually wanted to post right after I read the article. It made me cry-- both the truths and the un-truths in it.

My "take-home" from reading it is that

A) I climb a lot more, and a lot harder, than a lot of climbing moms out there. (Substantiated by real-life comparisons as well as the stats in the article).

B) I am judged by many people because of it.
--I have been told that I shouldn't be climbing, b/c 'what if something happens to you, what will your kids do then"?
--I have been told, many times, that I am irresponsible to "leave my children" twoce a month to go on a weekend climbing trip. I "leave" them with my husband, their FATHER, for God's sake! How many times a guy is told that he is irresponsible to "leave the kids" if he goes off fishing for the weekend?

To add another climbing example, does anyone remember the respective deaths of Alex Lowe and Alison Hargreaves? Both died in the Himalaya in the mid-late 1990s, both had young children. However, there was a pretty harsh backlash against Hargreaves after her death for "leaving" a child without a mother, much more than any criticism of Lowe for doing leaving his kids fatherless..

I would expect that this double standard would be even more pronounced if, say, a female with a 10-year old started free soloing like Michael Reardon did. I guarantee that such a hypothetical mother would be completely shunned by the entire community, she would not get the sponsorships that Reardon did, and if she was to meet Reardon's end, her ENTIRE legacy would be negative.

Are women inherently less likely to take these sorts of risks, even if the kids are not in the picture?

Are they less likely to do it b/c they feel more attached to their children and more "responsible" for them than the fathers do?

Are the less likely to do so b/c they have been raised that way? Or b/c females in general are more atuned (and more dependent) on the opinions of the people around them, and tend to look for 'approval' and 'validation'?