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trenchdigger
Feb 23, 2009, 5:13 PM
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marde wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Aluminum is not a metal that you can easily detect internal cracks or signs of stress by visual inspection. To be able to see stress factors, you must use an x-ray or do other test such as ultrasonic which YOU do not have at home so what is your life worth? I'm calling BS as well. But what else is new? Reference please... majid is absolutely right, you won't be able to see internal fractures in aluminum like in most other materials except glass.
<sigh> here we go again...
Any impact large enough to do "internal" damage to aluminum will also result in significant external damage. The only way to get dangerous "microfractures" is via fatigue. Climbing gear used as intended will never be subject to the type of loading that could produce or propagate "invisible" or "internal" fatigue cracks.
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majid_sabet
Feb 23, 2009, 5:15 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: many years ago, one of the hardware mfgs dropped 100 hardware and did an extensive testing after each drop and discovered that almost 90+% of the dropped gear were fine but then you got the few which did not. Aluminum is not a metal that you can easily detect internal cracks or signs of stress by visual inspection. To be able to see stress factors, you must use an x-ray or do other test such as ultrasonic which YOU do not have at home so what is your life worth? I'm calling BS as well. But what else is new? Reference please... You call it BS cause you are Pendejo and can tell the difference between sh*t and burrito . Here smoke this (+==) chingon and come back when you feel like you know something. There's the majid I know...
go search BD site
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jdefazio
Feb 23, 2009, 5:24 PM
Post #28 of 66
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pedro_sandchez wrote: So this weekend I dropped my petzl reverso and attache about 60ish feet. Not sure how it happened, I'm guessing part of my shirt got caught in the gate when I clipped it to my harness because when I reached up to unlock a different biner, i heard it unclip and fall.
Apparently you weren't climbing hard enough, or the shirt would have been a non-issue.
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altelis
Feb 23, 2009, 5:26 PM
Post #29 of 66
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jdefazio wrote: pedro_sandchez wrote: So this weekend I dropped my petzl reverso and attache about 60ish feet. Not sure how it happened, I'm guessing part of my shirt got caught in the gate when I clipped it to my harness because when I reached up to unlock a different biner, i heard it unclip and fall. Apparently you weren't climbing hard enough, or the shirt would have been a non-issue.
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reg
Feb 23, 2009, 5:40 PM
Post #30 of 66
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: many years ago, one of the hardware mfgs dropped 100 hardware and did an extensive testing after each drop and discovered that almost 90+% of the dropped gear were fine but then you got the few which did not. Aluminum is not a metal that you can easily detect internal cracks or signs of stress by visual inspection. To be able to see stress factors, you must use an x-ray or do other test such as ultrasonic which YOU do not have at home so what is your life worth? I'm calling BS as well. But what else is new? Reference please... You call it BS cause you are Pendejo and can tell the difference between sh*t and burrito . Here smoke this (+==) chingon and come back when you feel like you know something. There's the majid I know...
careful trenchdigger - the majid i know will make you his women
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altelis
Feb 23, 2009, 5:54 PM
Post #31 of 66
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reg wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: many years ago, one of the hardware mfgs dropped 100 hardware and did an extensive testing after each drop and discovered that almost 90+% of the dropped gear were fine but then you got the few which did not. Aluminum is not a metal that you can easily detect internal cracks or signs of stress by visual inspection. To be able to see stress factors, you must use an x-ray or do other test such as ultrasonic which YOU do not have at home so what is your life worth? I'm calling BS as well. But what else is new? Reference please... You call it BS cause you are Pendejo and can tell the difference between sh*t and burrito . Here smoke this (+==) chingon and come back when you feel like you know something. There's the majid I know... careful trenchdigger - the majid i know will make you his women
Sure sounds like you're speaking from personal experience....
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kachoong
Feb 23, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #32 of 66
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pedro_sandchez wrote: My partner down below saw it happen and tried to catch it. It bounced off of his palm and landed in the dirt at his feet.
He couldn't catch it? What a butter-fingers! Replace your partner!
(This post was edited by kachoong on Feb 23, 2009, 6:05 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Feb 23, 2009, 6:05 PM
Post #33 of 66
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majid_sabet wrote: many years ago, one of the hardware mfgs dropped 100 hardware and did an extensive testing after each drop and discovered that almost 90+% of the dropped gear were fine but then you got the few which did not. Aluminum is not a metal that you can easily detect internal cracks or signs of stress by visual inspection. To be able to see stress factors, you must use an x-ray or do other test such as ultrasonic which YOU do not have at home so what is your life worth?
I bought an MRI just for this purpose.
In other news, I dropped my reverso once. It pinged off rocks on the way down and landed in the ferns. A few months later a guy I know came up to me at the gym and said that he found my device but didn't want to just leave it around since we'd be a while in descending. He was about to run out to his car to grab it when I told him to keep it. Good karma on his part (he deserved the reward), but I was also wary of its strength.
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grover
Feb 23, 2009, 6:08 PM
Post #34 of 66
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Keep the device and replace your partner.
His hand might have a micro-fracture.
meh
edited to add: bah... kachoong beat me to the punchline by 3 minutes!
(This post was edited by grover on Feb 23, 2009, 6:12 PM)
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USnavy
Feb 23, 2009, 6:38 PM
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shoo wrote: USnavy wrote: Really... Hmmm. See I to read the same article but the actual results was 100% of the devices were safe. And it was REI that did the test. And it was on carabiners. REI found that all of their carabiners they dropped failed above their rating. This was in no way, shape, or form a definitive test.
Maybe, maybe not. If I remember right they dropped 20 carabiners from a reasonable distance onto concrete and everyone failed above its rating. So if zero out of twenty are bad... well... it’s obvious what that hints...
Consider this. Black Diamond themselves specifically state that dropped carabiners are likely safe to use if the gate action is good and there is no visible damage to the carabiner on their website.
Another thing to think about. Have you ever in your life heard of a belay device (or any gear) failing specificaly because it was dropped? I have never heard of a belay device failing period let alone one failing from being dropped. I have tried to pull test a few of the belay devices on the market that were about ten years old and in all cases my static rope failed before the belay device.
If the OP dropped the carabiner 60 feet and it hit his partner’s hand and landed in the dirt its ultra likely that its fine.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 23, 2009, 6:50 PM)
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reg
Feb 23, 2009, 6:51 PM
Post #36 of 66
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altelis wrote: reg wrote: trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: You call it BS cause you are Pendejo and can tell the difference between sh*t and burrito . Here smoke this (+==) chingon and come back when you feel like you know something. There's the majid I know... careful trenchdigger - the majid i know will make you his women Sure sounds like you're speaking from personal experience....
damn it. should've added something like: "ask angry" -
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johnwesely
Feb 23, 2009, 6:56 PM
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How could a tube style belay device fail at all. I could see a reverso failing in the autoblock mode, but that seems like it would be unlikely to occur given the low forces generated by a top rope fall.
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lostparrot
Feb 23, 2009, 11:07 PM
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AL does NOT develop microfractures. If it is damaged on the inside, it WILL be visible on the outside(may take close, careful examination to see, but will be visible). This whole thing about micrfractures is a joke. AL does not crack like that unless it is heat treated. AL is a soft metal. As long as the gate action is okay, and the openings on the belay device are okay, they are fine.
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rockclimber919
Feb 25, 2009, 6:18 PM
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think of it this way. how much is your life worth? and your partners life? go out and buy another one. if you buy one every time gear is in question, you'll learn really fucking fast not to drop your gear.
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j_ung
Feb 25, 2009, 6:25 PM
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If you decide to retire it, I'll take it. I'll pay shipping.
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angry
Feb 25, 2009, 6:30 PM
Post #41 of 66
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Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions?
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bigjonnyc
Feb 25, 2009, 6:37 PM
Post #42 of 66
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angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions?
This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use.
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robbovius
Feb 25, 2009, 7:20 PM
Post #43 of 66
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pedro_sandchez wrote: So this weekend I dropped my petzl reverso and attache about 60ish feet. Not sure how it happened, I'm guessing part of my shirt got caught in the gate when I clipped it to my harness because when I reached up to unlock a different biner, i heard it unclip and fall. Bassically, it slid down a slabby face and then dropped off the vertical face. My partner down below saw it happen and tried to catch it. It bounced off of his palm and landed in the dirt at his feet. It didn't land directly on rock or anything just in the dirt. I am convinced it is totally safe in that it didn't impact any rock at the base of the climb. My partner on the other hand is skeptical. I just wanted to get some other opinions. Thanks
Oh jesus tap-dancing CHRIST! n00bs. re:STFU.
I dropped a Faders belay plate down 4 pitches of Mt webster last august. tink, tink, boink, tink, tink...it went down off into the distance. later that day when I got back to the base I put it back on my rack, no matter that the corners were all scratched up.
"I dropped my belaydevice/carabiner/nut/whatever! is it safe?" duh. candyasses.
in order for your belay device or carabiner to be damaged after falling, you'd have to also bash the shit out of it with big heavy stones until it looked like it wouldn't pass the rope any more.
OMFG this myth is tha fattest load of squash ever. its a squash and corn burrito in godzilla's pants.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Feb 25, 2009, 7:25 PM)
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cracklover
Feb 25, 2009, 7:50 PM
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bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use.
Oh, if it's got a visible crack in the main body, I bet it'd break no problem from a hard fall. adatesman - I've got more old ATCs than I know what to do with, wanna flex one til you can get it to crack, then destroy it in a slow pull test on a rope through it to see how much force it takes to explode it?
GO
PS microfractures in dropped gear are a myth.
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justroberto
Feb 25, 2009, 8:43 PM
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cracklover wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. Oh, if it's got a visible crack in the main body, I bet it'd break no problem from a hard fall. adatesman - I've got more old ATCs than I know what to do with, wanna flex one til you can get it to crack, then destroy it in a slow pull test on a rope through it to see how much force it takes to explode it? GO PS microfractures in dropped gear are a myth.
Bash the shit out of your atc with a hammer for a couple of minutes and then send it to ad. If he can still get one through the holes, I bet any rope breaks every single time before the device fails.
Tell you what - I'm climbing tonight. If I have my extra atc with me, I will hit it a couple of times with a hammer, drive my car over it, and drop a small boulder on top of it if I can find one. That's at least as bad as dropping it 60 feet into the dirt, doncha think? I'll inspect it, and if it looks good, I'll have someone belay me with it. If it looks like it's been compromised, I'll send it to adatesman along with a piece of rope for testing.
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bigjonnyc
Feb 25, 2009, 8:45 PM
Post #46 of 66
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cracklover wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. Oh, if it's got a visible crack in the main body, I bet it'd break no problem from a hard fall. adatesman - I've got more old ATCs than I know what to do with, wanna flex one til you can get it to crack, then destroy it in a slow pull test on a rope through it to see how much force it takes to explode it? GO PS microfractures in dropped gear are a myth.
I too would like to see this test. Since we're talking about a crack/fracture in the aluminum due to an impact, maybe hit it with a hammer to crack it instead of pull flexing it to get a crack to start with. Or, to be more repeatable, you could just use a hacksaw and cut it clean through on one side? Then see what force you have to pull on a rope threaded through it to break it.
I'm also curious of the actual forces seen in the rope where it enters the belay device when catching a fall. I can't imagine it's that large, even on a reasonably big fall, say factor 0.75 or so. Think of the whiplash a belayer would take if the rope pulled with like a 1000 lbs. You've also gotta factor in slippage through the device, all the friction of the rope through each piece of gear, the fact that the belayer is not a fixed point, but moves when catching a fall, etc. All together I just don't think that it would add up to enough to rupture the device.
However, please don't believe for a moment I'd be stupid enough to use a belay device with a big crack in it.
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cracklover
Feb 25, 2009, 11:25 PM
Post #47 of 66
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justroberto wrote: cracklover wrote: bigjonnyc wrote: angry wrote: Is there a report, ever, of a tube style belay device breaking? Under any conditions? This is exactly what I've been thinking while reading this thread. All your belay device does is provide friction in the setup. If you take a moment to think about the actual forces induced upon it, common sense says that even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use. Oh, if it's got a visible crack in the main body, I bet it'd break no problem from a hard fall. adatesman - I've got more old ATCs than I know what to do with, wanna flex one til you can get it to crack, then destroy it in a slow pull test on a rope through it to see how much force it takes to explode it? GO PS microfractures in dropped gear are a myth. In what scenario is this even a possibility? An atc or reverso "flexing" to metal fatigue? When does this happen?
Never. Duh. The question wasn't "how could you get a visible crack in your device by dropping it?" Because you couldn't. You could drop it off El Cap, the device doesn't have enough mass to hit with enough impact to hurt itself that much. But again, that wasn't the point.
In reply to: "Exploding" belay devices? Jesus Christ, can't we use some common sense for a minute?
Well, I think it would at least make a loud "ping" sound when it broke at the crack. "Exploding" is a relative term.
In reply to: Bash the shit out of your atc with a hammer for a couple of minutes and then send it to ad. If he can still get one through the holes, I bet any rope breaks every single time before the device fails.
That's not the question. Bash it with a hammer and all you're going to do is flatten it. In order to get a visible crack, you'll have to stress it until it cracks. This was your hypothesis - I didn't come up with it. You said:
In reply to: even if if did have a visible crack in it, it'd probably still not "break" during use.
In reply to: Tell you what - I'm climbing tonight. If I have my extra atc with me, I will hit it a couple of times with a hammer, drive my car over it, and drop a small boulder on top of it if I can find one. That's at least as bad as dropping it 60 feet into the dirt, doncha think? I'll inspect it, and if it looks good, I'll have someone belay me with it. If it looks like it's been compromised, I'll send it to adatesman along with a piece of rope for testing.
Again, irrelevant. I think I stated my experiment pretty clearly, and I think it would prove or disprove your statment perfectly well. Apparently rather than stand behind your statement, you feel the need to obfuscate it.
GO
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altelis
Feb 26, 2009, 12:04 AM
Post #48 of 66
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USnavy wrote: ... Consider this. Black Diamond themselves specifically state that dropped carabiners are likely safe to use if the gate action is good and there is no visible damage to the carabiner on their website.
if you can drop a carabiner from such a height as to damage the one on the website, i'll go over there and create a multpitch crag on hawaii for you!! 
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altelis
Feb 26, 2009, 12:20 AM
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better. though i wasn't so much trying to give you a hard time as just pointing out the funny phrasing used.
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