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Extending length of anchor
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denorza2009


Feb 25, 2009, 9:28 PM
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Extending length of anchor
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Hi,

What's generally considered the the best way to extend an anchor, say an equalette, when you need to get it over the lip when top roping. Also, is there any particular length extension to not exceed?

I think a 60cm runner connected to each equalette loop with a locking biner up top, then a locking biner at the end of each of the runner, is mostly what I"ve noticed. Seems like you might want to tie an overhand limiter knot at the end of each runner above the biner, just so it can't jump up further into the sling and potentially tangle..

I suppose sliding x is similar

Academic question, as I'm not placing anchors, but I'd like to know what are the general opinions about it. I've found suprising little info on best practices for this.

thanks


acorneau


Feb 25, 2009, 9:41 PM
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Re: [denorza2009] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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There are a couple of easy ways to go about it:

1. If your cordelette is perfectly set but short of where you want your master point, just take a pair of same-length slings and add them on to the end with the appropriate biners.

2. If the angle of your cordelette would be too wide, extend each piece with a sling then tie your cordelette. No need for lockers on the slings.

Understand that spectra-based slings are going to wear quicker than nylon cord or webbing.


hafilax


Feb 26, 2009, 1:41 AM
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I'm of the school that 2 biners (locking or non) opposite and opposed is better than a single locker so when extending an anchor over an edge I add 2 biners. The only tricky part is ensuring that the biners don't end up at the edge. Any anchor approved cordage will do from static line to dyneema. I tend to make sure everything is redundant if the anchor won't be attended at all times.


johnwesely


Feb 26, 2009, 1:58 AM
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extend the pieces and then rig the anchor. It will help keep the angle low and distribute force.


bill413


Feb 26, 2009, 2:58 AM
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Re: [hafilax] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
I'm of the school that 2 biners (locking or non) opposite and opposed is better than a single locker ...
Due to personal experience, I am in full agreement with this. Any single point biner in an anchor should be doubled up (locker or not). This doesn't mean all the biners in each leg, but certainly the "one" at the master point.

If I'm extending an anchor out, I want two independent legs to go over the ledge. After all, if the rock saws through one, I can feel a smug supriority that I had redundancy. So, two sepearte runners from the equalette to the rope, or some static line rigged to form two independent lines to go over the edge. If it's really sharp, try and rig some padding under the anchor to protect it.


denorza2009


Feb 26, 2009, 4:19 AM
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Thanks for the thoughtful and very helpful replies.

bill413 wrote:
Due to personal experience, I am in full agreement with this. Any single point biner in an anchor should be doubled up (locker or not). This doesn't mean all the biners in each leg, but certainly the "one" at the master point.

If I'm extending an anchor out, I want two independent legs to go over the ledge. After all, if the rock saws through one, I can feel a smug supriority that I had redundancy. So, two sepearte runners from the equalette to the rope, or some static line rigged to form two independent lines to go over the edge. If it's really sharp, try and rig some padding under the anchor to protect it.

So it sounds like maybe something like the below would be sufficient. Extending a equalette with two runners, say equalette is connected to two bolts up above.






Attachments: equalette1.jpg (83.3 KB)
  equalette2.jpg (80.9 KB)


bill413


Feb 26, 2009, 4:27 AM
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denorza2009 wrote:
So it sounds like maybe something like the below would be sufficient. Extending a equalette with two runners, say equalette is connected to two bolts up above.
Looks happy to me.


altelis


Feb 26, 2009, 4:32 AM
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seems like if you reversed it, and extended from the bolt side you get to reduce the carabiners by 2, and less of a mess going into your pp, no?


styndall


Feb 26, 2009, 5:51 AM
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That looks more than strong enough. I'd go with a single locker or a pair of non-lockers on the rope, but that's not such a big deal.


N_Oo_B


Feb 26, 2009, 6:01 AM
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initial thought was why 2 runners. realization came seconds later.


moose_droppings


Feb 26, 2009, 6:13 AM
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Re: [bill413] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
hafilax wrote:
I'm of the school that 2 biners (locking or non) opposite and opposed is better than a single locker ...
Due to personal experience, I am in full agreement with this. Any single point biner in an anchor should be doubled up (locker or not). This doesn't mean all the biners in each leg, but certainly the "one" at the master point.

If I'm extending an anchor out, I want two independent legs to go over the ledge. After all, if the rock saws through one, I can feel a smug supriority that I had redundancy. So, two sepearte runners from the equalette to the rope, or some static line rigged to form two independent lines to go over the edge. If it's really sharp, try and rig some padding under the anchor to protect it.

Solid, concise and accurate answer.


So I'm guessing 3 more pages to this thread.


bill413


Feb 26, 2009, 2:31 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Solid, concise and accurate answer.

Thank you.

moose_droppings wrote:
So I'm guessing 3 more pages to this thread.

Here's a start on that.


trenchdigger


Feb 26, 2009, 2:49 PM
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denorza2009 wrote:
Thanks for the thoughtful and very helpful replies.

bill413 wrote:
Due to personal experience, I am in full agreement with this. Any single point biner in an anchor should be doubled up (locker or not). This doesn't mean all the biners in each leg, but certainly the "one" at the master point.

If I'm extending an anchor out, I want two independent legs to go over the ledge. After all, if the rock saws through one, I can feel a smug supriority that I had redundancy. So, two sepearte runners from the equalette to the rope, or some static line rigged to form two independent lines to go over the edge. If it's really sharp, try and rig some padding under the anchor to protect it.

So it sounds like maybe something like the below would be sufficient. Extending a equalette with two runners, say equalette is connected to two bolts up above.






Save some gear and ditch two of your non-lockers and clip both slings to both 'biners on the equalette master point.


denorza2009


Feb 26, 2009, 3:09 PM
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Re: [altelis] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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thanks for the replies

altelis wrote:
seems like if you reversed it, and extended from the bolt side you get to reduce the carabiners by 2, and less of a mess going into your pp, no?

That does sound like it might be cleaner, though I'm not positive I get where the carabiners would be reduced. I guess if one ran the cordelette through the runners, tied it, then setup the equalette tying off each leg before attaching runner to bolt, that would let you reduce them. Then you have the two lockers on the pp.


angeleyes


Feb 26, 2009, 8:07 PM
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Re: [trenchdigger] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Save some gear and ditch two of your non-lockers and clip both slings to both 'biners on the equalette master point.

I thought with an equalette it was important to not have any one biner going through both equalette loops however.. Though I was never completely sure why, I guess it would reduce self equalization.

Maybe what you suggest more for a sliding x anchor?

not sure Unsure


acorneau


Feb 26, 2009, 8:09 PM
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angeleyes wrote:
I thought with an equalette it was important to not have any one biner going through both equalette loops however.

Clip one biner to one loop, the other biner to the other loop. Now, clip both slings to both biners. Done.


(This post was edited by acorneau on Feb 26, 2009, 8:11 PM)


trenchdigger


Feb 26, 2009, 8:11 PM
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angeleyes wrote:
In reply to:
Save some gear and ditch two of your non-lockers and clip both slings to both 'biners on the equalette master point.

I thought with an equalette it was important to not have any one biner going through both equalette loops however.. Though I was never completely sure why, I guess it would reduce self equalization.

Maybe what you suggest more for a sliding x anchor?

not sure Unsure

Sorry, hard to be clear without a photo...

I'm still suggesting two 'biners on the equalette (rather than 4) with one on each strand. Just clip BOTH extension slings to BOTH of those 'biners.

Edited to add:
acorneau wrote:
Clip one biner to one loop, the other biner to the other loop. Now, clip both slings to both biners. Done.

What he said!


(This post was edited by trenchdigger on Feb 26, 2009, 8:12 PM)


pil1


Mar 13, 2009, 6:00 PM
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bill413 wrote:
If I'm extending an anchor out, I want two independent legs to go over the ledge. After all, if the rock saws through one, I can feel a smug supriority that I had redundancy. So, two sepearte runners from the equalette to the rope, or some static line rigged to form two independent lines to go over the edge. If it's really sharp, try and rig some padding under the anchor to protect it.

I've run into the need to do this too where often two runners isn't enough length to extend.

When you talk about rigging some static line to form two independent lines... Um how would one do that exactly, I can't think of a clean way to do the static line that way.

Also it seems like if you extend down beyond a certain point, that it might affect the force on your pieces... But maybe not if your anchor is tied off at a low angle, maybe it's no different than having the top rope connected ('oh dear I've gone crosseyed').


bill413


Mar 14, 2009, 1:56 AM
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Re: [pil1] Extending length of anchor [In reply to]
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pil1 wrote:
When you talk about rigging some static line to form two independent lines... Um how would one do that exactly, I can't think of a clean way to do the static line that way.

Well, just setting this up as a thought experiment (since, as we all know, things will differ in real life from the internet)...
Let's say you bring your anchor rig to a single master point that is short of the cliff edge. You could then tie an eight in the end of the static line, clip to the master point, run it down over the ledge, tie two eights for clipping the top rope, run the standing part back up to the master point and tie another eight. So...result: eight at end (clipped to MP), eight near middle (clip to rope), some unused slack, eight near middle (clip to rope), eight at other end of static (if perfect length), or in midst of line, clipped to anchor. This establishes two independent legs & sets of knots between the anchor and the attachment point for the rope.

Hope the description is clear.


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