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tansofun
Mar 2, 2009, 3:33 AM
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Here's a cam I pulled from Tunnel Vision in Red Rock Feb 21 2009
It was somewhere in the first chimney pitch. I looked at it and thought "the trigger is broken, but the webbing looks good" and rotated it a bit and gave it a couple tugs and didn't think it was going to go anywhere. One last tug to check and it came right out.
I don't know how many people have hammered away at it, or how long its been there, but it was enough to get the axle to shear all the way through.
I didn't bother getting in deep enough to try to clip into the fixed #5
Here's a link to a 3072 x 2304 pixel pic
http://www.flickr.com/.../3320824809/sizes/o/
(This post was edited by tansofun on Mar 2, 2009, 3:35 AM)
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coolcat83
Mar 2, 2009, 4:45 AM
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from the picture the lobes don't seem trashed, and the cam is shiney so unless you cleaned it off it couldn't be too old
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coastal_climber
Mar 2, 2009, 5:58 AM
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But if it was in the crack deep then it would have been protected from UV etc...
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suilenroc
Mar 2, 2009, 6:51 AM
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all i see is a broken Rock Empire cam.
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granite_grrl
Mar 2, 2009, 12:22 PM
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heh....rock empire....
I know its been a damn long time since I've done that route, but what pitch was it on?
No, it doesn't look that old. I would have expected some rust at least, but then I remembered that this is the dessert we're talking about, the the East or South East.
Its a popular enough route that I'd think that someone would remember how long it's been fixed there.
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johnwesely
Mar 2, 2009, 1:38 PM
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Did it break from you pulling, or was it already broken?
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rhythm164
Mar 2, 2009, 2:32 PM
Post #8 of 38
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this post is great PR for Rock Empire...
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brownie710
Mar 2, 2009, 2:40 PM
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pulled feb 21st? I'm guessing the shipping box was opened the 19th, first placement was the 20th and then here we are.
deep in the crack, dry desert conditions, etc, that cam would not still look brand spanking new (that logo on the sling is still gleaming white). here is to the puckerfest surely to be begun for all RE users.
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jeepnphreak
Mar 2, 2009, 4:40 PM
Post #10 of 38
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tansofun wrote: Here's a cam I pulled from Tunnel Vision in Red Rock Feb 21 2009 It was somewhere in the first chimney pitch. I looked at it and thought "the trigger is broken, but the webbing looks good" and rotated it a bit and gave it a couple tugs and didn't think it was going to go anywhere. One last tug to check and it came right out. I don't know how many people have hammered away at it, or how long its been there, but it was enough to get the axle to shear all the way through. I didn't bother getting in deep enough to try to clip into the fixed #5 Here's a link to a 3072 x 2304 pixel pic http://www.flickr.com/.../3320824809/sizes/o/
Wow rock empire, not to resureing. My sugestion is not to climb with it  it tost.
Id make it in to a key chain or somthing.
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vegastradguy
Mar 2, 2009, 5:19 PM
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huh, i remember that cam- saw it the last time i climbed the route- back in the early fall....i wanna say September or October.
kinda creepy that it popped out like that.
i wonder if the snow had anything to do with it- Tunnelvision is a watercourse- all that snow sat on the angelfood wall for weeks afterwards- had to be some freeze/thaw things going on en route. (im thinking pressure of ice, not temps)
interesting.
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patmay81
Mar 2, 2009, 5:36 PM
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I don't own any RE cams, but I have been caught by a RE cam before. I trust them. Aliens and Link Cams have had failures too, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use them anymore. I don't think we can judge a company just because of a picture of one broken cam.
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xtrmecat
Mar 2, 2009, 5:39 PM
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I just got off my first winter wall in Zion and noticed something that "may" be the cause. Cracks tend to close tighter when cold. An example is I climbed a pitch in the evening when the ambient temp was in the 50's and then cleaned it in the AM when the ambient was still hovering in the 30's. I lost no gear but nuts set to just hang in there were in tight and cams that where placed optimally were maxed out.
The point is the cam was fixed last fall some time and has had all winter to have below freezing temps crank the crack down against the axle via the cam lobes. I inspected the larger picture linked but couldn't find a flattening of the lobes in the area of being overcammed but did notice the distance of the shear on the axle can and should correspond closely with the distance from the edge and between the outer two axles.
Is this a viable solution? Does the outer two cam lobes on the sheared side have any flattening resulting from pressure greater than an axle can hold? I certainly think this is possible, especially with the timing of fixing and removal.
Never underestimate mother natures power.
Bob
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debaser655321
Mar 2, 2009, 5:44 PM
Post #14 of 38
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There was a lot of snow and cold temperatures in Red Rock Canyon the week before (surprising I know). Plus the temperatures rose rapidly the following week. I'm sure there as thermal damage to the cam.
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altelis
Mar 2, 2009, 5:48 PM
Post #15 of 38
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rhythm164 wrote: this post is great PR for Rock Empire...
this is the problem i have with a bunch of the cheaper model cams: they are hard to clean.
i totally trust them to hold a fall, thats not the worry. i won 10 camp nano biners and 4 camp cams.
I LOVE the biners. I only have 2 cams left- fixed two within the first trip using them. I reserve them for my aid rack. I've had the same experience with other "cheap" cam models. They've held falls and dicy(ish) aid placements no worries. Its just when it comes time to get them out they don't really wanna.
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jrathfon
Mar 2, 2009, 5:51 PM
Post #16 of 38
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xtrmecat wrote: I just got off my first winter wall in Zion and noticed something that "may" be the cause. Cracks tend to close tighter when cold. An example is I climbed a pitch in the evening when the ambient temp was in the 50's and then cleaned it in the AM when the ambient was still hovering in the 30's. I lost no gear but nuts set to just hang in there were in tight and cams that where placed optimally were maxed out. The point is the cam was fixed last fall some time and has had all winter to have below freezing temps crank the crack down against the axle via the cam lobes. I inspected the larger picture linked but couldn't find a flattening of the lobes in the area of being overcammed but did notice the distance of the shear on the axle can and should correspond closely with the distance from the edge and between the outer two axles. Is this a viable solution? Does the outer two cam lobes on the sheared side have any flattening resulting from pressure greater than an axle can hold? I certainly think this is possible, especially with the timing of fixing and removal. Never underestimate mother natures power. Bob
My thoughts exactly. A hanging flake, or one of those red rock towers pretty much detached from the mother wall (tunnel vision, epi come to mind) could move inches with thermal expansion just from the rock itself let alone with water helping. (before I get flamed, I am not saying the rock itself will expand inches, rather a levering action of the feature, a mm at the bottom, a few inches hundreds of feet up) With the lobes of the cam pinned, not too much force (say 20 kN) would be needed to shear the axle. Considering how much an entire tower could weigh, just a little movement between fall, winter, then spring could do the trick.
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bandycoot
Mar 2, 2009, 5:51 PM
Post #17 of 38
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debaser655321 wrote: I'm sure there as thermal damage to the cam.
How can you be sure? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? How does outside temperature swings damage a cam? Can you explain a mechanism?
I can see Vegastradguy's argument that ice might have pressurized it in some weird way, but "thermal damage?" No way. People probably beat the hell out of that cam since it was fixed for half a year plus. Rock Empire cams aren't all bad because one was left out for maltreatment by the elements and climbers looking for booty. I've never heard of another RE cam failing. I've broken an almost brand new C4 camalot in a small fall. I guess we should all stop climbing on them? Brilliant....
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adatesman
Mar 2, 2009, 6:03 PM
Post #18 of 38
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debaser655321
Mar 2, 2009, 6:06 PM
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bandy, I'm referring to the metal begin stressed by both internally by contracting, expanding and ice creating pressure on it. Also, metal is susceptible to changes in mechanical properties at different temperatures. Combine these factors and the material could easily be compromised. I'm not making this up, I learned it in school. It's for real. If you're interested in learning about materials, rockclimbing.com isn't the place to do it.
As to what actually cause the metal to snap, it was probably the pulling.
What caused your C4 to break? Did you send it back to BD?
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j_ung
Mar 2, 2009, 6:07 PM
Post #20 of 38
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That cam's fine. I'd fall on it all day long.
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bandycoot
Mar 2, 2009, 6:13 PM
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I've studied a little engineering and materials and chemistry, and I highly doubt that the temps in RR are extreme enough to change material properties significantly, or even noticably. I can see pressures resulting from temp/ice, but not the temp directly having an effect.
On a 0.5 C5, the cam's axle bent holding two of the lobes in the closed position. I think it was irregularity in the rock inside the crack just put the perfectly wrong force on the thing as I took a 6' swinging fall. I sent it back to BD for inspection.
Josh
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patmay81
Mar 2, 2009, 6:47 PM
Post #22 of 38
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bandycoot wrote: debaser655321 wrote: I'm sure there as thermal damage to the cam. How can you be sure? Do you have any idea what you're talking about? How does outside temperature swings damage a cam? Can you explain a mechanism? I can see Vegastradguy's argument that ice might have pressurized it in some weird way, but "thermal damage?" No way. People probably beat the hell out of that cam since it was fixed for half a year plus. Rock Empire cams aren't all bad because one was left out for maltreatment by the elements and climbers looking for booty. I've never heard of another RE cam failing. I've broken an almost brand new C4 camalot in a small fall. I guess we should all stop climbing on them? Brilliant....
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budman
Mar 2, 2009, 7:10 PM
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It's mine and I want it back! It has a blue sling and ah...... Oh hell that was in the picture. A nut and bolt will fix that puppy for the desert rack.
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jrathfon
Mar 2, 2009, 8:07 PM
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bandycoot wrote: I've studied a little engineering and materials and chemistry, and I highly doubt that the temps in RR are extreme enough to change material properties significantly, or even noticably. I can see pressures resulting from temp/ice, but not the temp directly having an effect. On a 0.5 C5, the cam's axle bent holding two of the lobes in the closed position. I think it was irregularity in the rock inside the crack just put the perfectly wrong force on the thing as I took a 6' swinging fall. I sent it back to BD for inspection. Josh
I agree. From 10-120 deg F, would not do much to changing the materials property of that cam, (it's probably within the operating range spec by the manufacturer or a manufacturer of cams, if they even rate things like that). I think the big difference is the rock feature going between 30 and 34 deg F that would take the cake.
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irregularpanda
Mar 2, 2009, 8:09 PM
Post #25 of 38
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patmay81 wrote: I don't own any RE cams, but I have been caught by a RE cam before. I trust them. Aliens and Link Cams have had failures too, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use them anymore. I don't think we can judge a company just because of a picture of one broken cam.
I know huh. People seem to be judging a perfectly good company from one picture. I saw a destroyed #2-BD because it was a dumbass placement and a loose block shifted its weight onto the cam...
Maybe, just maybe this happened due to expansion/contraction of the rock within a normal temperature fluctuation.
Or maybe the person who placed the cam was panicked, and made a poor placement that was irretrievable.
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