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tomtom


Feb 12, 2009, 5:52 PM
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Re: [adeptus] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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adeptus wrote:
Diamox is a drug that is directly enhancing your performance at altitude = cheating.
No. Diamox doesn't enhance performance at altitude, it just speeds aclimatization.

Another thought for the OP, Diamox doesn't work for everyone (it doesn't do much for me.) Also, if you're going to carry it you might want to discuss with your doctor about testing the drug for side effects before you go. Better to understand the side effects at home before getting stuck in a storm on the mountain.


roy_hinkley_jr


Feb 12, 2009, 6:07 PM
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Re: [tomtom] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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tomtom wrote:
Diamox doesn't enhance performance at altitude, it just speeds aclimatization.

Actually, it doesn't even do that.


adeptus


Feb 12, 2009, 6:17 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr


Feb 12, 2009, 6:26 PM
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Re: [adeptus] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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adeptus wrote:
Same difference!
The fact is that people take such drugs to compensate for lack of confidence in themselves.
It is unethical and it should be totally unacceptable in the alpine climbing community, period!

So you know nothing about the subject, you know nothing about high altitude, and you know nothing about mountaineering history. Damn, that's a pretty impressive lack of knowledge.


kennoyce


Feb 12, 2009, 6:34 PM
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Re: [adeptus] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The fact is that people take such drugs to compensate for lack of confidence in themselves.

This is completely false. The reason people take such drugs is because they love climbing, and have a limited time to acclimatize.

This is like someone who likes spicy foods, knows they get heartburn, so they take a Pepcid before dinner. As has been stated it does nothing to enhance performance, it just helps to alleviate some of the symptoms of AMS.


altelis


Feb 12, 2009, 6:35 PM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
adeptus wrote:
Same difference!
The fact is that people take such drugs to compensate for lack of confidence in themselves.
It is unethical and it should be totally unacceptable in the alpine climbing community, period!

So you know nothing about the subject, you know nothing about high altitude, and you know nothing about mountaineering history. Damn, that's a pretty impressive lack of knowledge.

not that he needs reminding, but i seem to remember something about adeptus pulling off an impressive ascent of the cassin ridge recently, and some other impressive altitude ascents.....



i gotta say, even though i don't fully agree with the analogy adeptus puts out, i think he brings up a good point. that said, i really think angry's view on the matter is just about spot on.

at the end of the day, the climbing is about the climbing and how you feel about the methods you used. for most of us, time and money are limited resources and if we are going to make the trip somewhere with big enough mountains for these sorts of issues to matter, we want to make sure we are successful.

we all, however, have differing opinions about what is fair game to that end. some think thousands of meters of fixed line and gear is acceptable, others think diamox is the ok, but barely. but at the end of the day it doesn't matter (as long as you take that gear and line back down with you). it was your ascent for you reasons.

where i think adeptus' view starts becoming increasingly valid and pertinent is when we are looking at the actions of those who are pushing the boundaries of our sport. those who are climbing with the eyes of the community upon them. those who are winning praise and admiration from our community and climbing societies. at that point these things should be made public.

does that mean they shouldn't be "allowed". hell no. you still do what you feel you need to do. there should simply be transparency in your actions. if your ascent is being considered for an award, or at the very least "public" praise, your actions should be fully taken into account. if the community accepts it great, if not too bad. you still did things for your own reasons- it was simply the communities choice to say "we didn't approve". but, at the end of the day, if their praise is something that matters, that is something for you to come to terms with.


Partner drector


Feb 12, 2009, 6:51 PM
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Re: [adeptus] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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adeptus wrote:
Diamox is a drug that is directly enhancing your performance at altitude = cheating.

Dex (Dexamethasone) on the over hand is a drug that you can take in an emergency against HACE.

That's a BIG difference.

But hell, if you feel a need to use Diamox you are probably too weak-minded to do any serious climbing anyway, so who cares.

It's not cheating unless it is used in a competition where there are rules that everyone agrees to follow. I.e. The tour de france requires that people sign up and agree to the rules. Climbing Denali does not require someone getting your permission to enter and your permission to take specific hard and soft goods onto the mountain. In fact, I would guess that no one cares what you think about their "cheating.".

No rules = not cheating!

When someone claims an ascent, do you ask if their pack, tent, or stove, meet with your rules? Why is their chemistry important? What about genetics? Do superior genetics amount to cheating? How about a prosthetic leg?

Dave

P.S. I would attempt it without extra chemicals but that's just my own personal decision, not yours.


skiclimb


Feb 12, 2009, 9:45 PM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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The people who want to tell anyone how they should climb (as long as it dosnt impact them personally) can all take a leap off big bertha.. I'll even consider giving them a shove if they ask for it.

I could care less if someone wants to use oxygen, crack or methamphetamine.. blood doping booze or weed up there.

The remote mountins are about the last bastion of freedom left in the world. nyone who wants to impose their rules on me can kiss my arse.. anyone who wants to judge my style is welcome to...

just dont expect me to give a flying fuck.

I'll climb my way you climb yours. Hope you have a good time out there whatever you do.. I will be.


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Feb 12, 2009, 9:46 PM)


reno


Feb 13, 2009, 3:18 AM
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Re: [graniteboy] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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graniteboy wrote:
I was recently made aware of the fact that a number of biochemical studies show that Caffeine has effects on the Calcium channel of our cells, and if I remember rightly, the misfunctioning of the calcium channel is one of the primary culprits in the creation of Altitude related illnesses.

Close. Caffeine has a profound effect on Adenosine A1 receptor sites, and those, in turn, cause a blockage of pre-synaptic "N" calcium channels. Thus, people who have a history of excessive caffeine use need larger doses of Adenosine to break re-entry tachycardias.

I'm trying to figure out how blockage of pre-synaptic N Ca++ channels would contribute to HAPE/HACE, though.


graniteboy


Feb 13, 2009, 11:53 PM
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Re: [reno] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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No, no, no....the caffeine (or other Calcium channel blocker) HELPS AVOID HAPE/HACE.

Calcium channel blockers are being investigated (eg nifedipene) successfully for both prevention and treatment of altitude illnesses. I'm just a biologist, not a pHD MD, so I don't keep up on all the silly biochemical details of that stuff...but caffeine seems to have worked for some of the world's fastest High altitude alpinists. The nifedipene abstract is here:

http://apps.isiknowledge.com/...oc=8&colname=WOS

Upshot: The calcium channel is critical (as we've known for a few decades), and maybe next time, I'll sip a nice thermos full of hot Nifedipene Latte half decaf on the upper ridges on the Cassin.


(This post was edited by graniteboy on Feb 14, 2009, 1:19 AM)


reno


Feb 14, 2009, 1:46 AM
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Re: [graniteboy] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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graniteboy wrote:
No, no, no....the caffeine (or other Calcium channel blocker) HELPS AVOID HAPE/HACE.

Jeez, yeah... that's what I meant to type: How caffeine helps prevent HAPE/HACE. Maybe that will teach me to proofread before hitting "post."

Still, I don't see how. The effect of blocking calcium channels doesn't seem to be an action that would prevent HAPE/HACE. Reduced contractility of the myocardium would, logic tells me, cause fluid to back up through the pulmonary vasculature, and worsen pulmonary edema buildup.

I'll read up on it, cause this has my curiosity perked. And, lest someone beat me to it, I am not a physician, just a retired "ambulance driver."


altelis


Feb 15, 2009, 2:55 AM
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Re: [reno] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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Here are some abstracts that seem to point in the right direction. Its definitely NOT a straight-forward chain of events!!!

Cardiovasc Res. 2006 Sep 1;71(4):630-41. Epub 2006 Apr 27.
In reply to:
Localized alveolar hypoxia causes constriction of the small resistance pulmonary arteries, thus diverting the desaturated, mixed-venous blood to better ventilated areas of the lung. Although modulated by endothelial vasoactive substances, the constrictor response to hypoxia is intrinsic to the smooth muscle cell. Ion channels are important elements in two of the three components of the response. Hypoxia inhibits several potassium channels (voltage-gated and TASK), leading to membrane depolarization and calcium entry through L-type channels. It also causes release of calcium from the sarcoplasmic reticulum, with consequent repletion through store-operated calcium channels. Finally, the effect of the rise in cytosolic calcium is amplified by enhanced calcium sensitivity of the actin/myosin interaction, achieved by the hypoxia-induced increase in Rho-kinase activity. The change in oxygen tension that stimulates these three "executive" components is signaled by a change in the redox status of the smooth muscle cell and probably by downstream changes in G-proteins. Ion channels also play a critical role in the vascular remodeling that results in chronic hypoxic pulmonary hypertension, seen when all the pulmonary vascular bed is hypoxic, at high altitude and in patients with chronic lung diseases. The same inhibition of potassium channels and influx of calcium results in high cytosolic levels of potassium and calcium. These, respectively, lead to inhibition of apoptosis and an increase in cellular proliferation. A better understanding of the pathophysiology of hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction and vascular remodeling will enable the design of better treatments for hypoxic and other forms of pulmonary hypertension.

Respir Physiol Neurobiol. 2006 Apr 28;151(2-3):192-208. Epub 2005 Dec 20.
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High altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) is a potentially fatal complication in response to exposure to low O(2) at high altitudes. Hypoxia, by causing pulmonary vasoconstriction, increases pulmonary vascular resistance and pulmonary arterial pressure, both of which are features in the pathogenesis of HAPE. Uneven hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction is thought to be responsible for increased capillary pressure and leakage, resulting in edema. O(2)-sensitive ion channels are known to play pivotal roles in determining vascular tone in response to hypoxia. K(+), Ca(2+) and Na(+) channels are ubiquitously expressed in both endothelial and smooth muscle cells of the pulmonary microvasculature, subfamilies of which are regulated by local changes in P(O(2)). Hypoxia reduces activity of voltage-gated K(+) channels and down-regulates their expression leading to membrane depolarization, Ca(2+) influx in pulmonary artery smooth muscle cells (by activating voltage-dependent Ca(2+) channels) and vasoconstriction. Hypoxia up-regulates transient receptor potential channels (TRPC) leading to enhanced Ca(2+) entry through receptor- and store-operated Ca(2+) channels. Altered enrichment of ion channels in membrane microdomains, in particular in caveolae, may play a role in excitation-contraction coupling and perhaps in O(2)-sensing in the pulmonary circulation and thereby may contribute to the development of HAPE. We review the role of ion channels, in particular those outlined above, in response to low O(2) on vascular tone and pulmonary edema. Advances in the understanding of ion channels involved in the physiological response to hypoxia should lead to a greater understanding of the pathogenesis of HAPE and perhaps in the identification of new therapies.

Am J Respir Cell Mol Biol. 2004 Sep;31(3):337-43. Epub 2004 May 19
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Chronic hypoxia results in both structural changes in the pulmonary artery and a sustained increase in pulmonary vascular tone. This study investigated the effects of subacute moderate hypoxia on expression and function of potassium (K+) channels in rat pulmonary artery myocytes (PASMCs). The rats were kept at 0.67 atmospheres for 6, 12, or 24 h. We found that the expression of mRNA for voltage-activated K+ channels (Kv)1.2, Kv1.5, and Kv2.1 is reduced after less than 24 h of this moderate hypoxia. K+ current (Ik) is significantly inhibited in PASMCs from rats hypoxic for 24 h, resting membrane potential is depolarized and cytosolic [Ca2+] is increased in these cells. In addition, antibodies to Kv1.2, Kv1.5, and Kv2.1 inhibit Ik, cause membrane depolarization and attenuate both hypoxia- and 4-AP-induced elevation in [Ca2+]i in PASMCs from normoxic rats but not from 24 h hypoxic rats. Subacute hypoxia does not completely remove the mRNA for Kv1.2, Kv1.5, and Kv2.1, but antibodies against these channels no longer alter Ik or cytosolic calcium, suggesting that subacute hypoxia may inactivate the channels as well as reduce expression. As the expression of mRNA for Kv1.2, Kv1.5, and Kv2.1 is sensitive to subacute hypoxia and decreased expression/function of these channels has physiologic effects on membrane potential and cytosolic calcium, it seems likely that these Kv channels may also be involved in the mechanism of high-altitude pulmonary edema and possibly in the signaling of chronic hypoxic pulmonary hypertension.




Just search "calcium channel high altitude edema" in PubMed. There are tons more where that came from......again. very interesting and not very straight forward (which makes it that much more interesting) stuff going on.


adnix


Apr 16, 2009, 9:47 PM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
tomtom wrote:
Diamox doesn't enhance performance at altitude, it just speeds aclimatization.

Actually, it doesn't even do that.

Actually, it does do that. UIAA study claims Diamox helps the body to acclimatise to the lack of oxygen.
http://www.mountaineering.ie/...A03-DiamoxEtc(1).pdf

Personally, I don't have problems taking drugs although I very rarely take them. Raiding the medicine pouch is good fun for rest days! Wink


vterinme


Apr 17, 2009, 2:48 AM
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Here's my personal case study, take it with a grain of salt since all bodies react differently..

Three people went from sea level to the 13,300 in one long flight. One took diamox the entire trip, I took diamox 24hrs before the flight and 24hrs after landing, the other nothing. Remember we took a flight ,planes pressurize at something like 8,000 feet or so, so we all jumped 5,000 in a door opening.

Fitness wise, I was the worse off, live in a pretty flat area with only a bike, but trained everyday for roughly two months. I kept my normal road speed at twenty for a 1/2 hr then an hour, and then for as long as the legs would go ( usually into the wind, I lived on the coast), plus the usually crunches, tree pull ups, and counter top dips. Weekends I drove to the mtns and did as many gully's as I could and usually ended the day with a quick ride. The others lived at the base of smallish mtns and just ran laps on those mid week and hit the gully's on the weekends.

Long story short, we all preformed about the same and felt the same at the end of the 2 1/2 weeks. We all had headaches, we all moved like shit for the first three days, wheezed. Our highest height was 19,974 ft. Once at 18,000 I had to turn back due to AMS, but none the less hit two peaks over 17,500, one at 18,000 and change and then the 19,000 foot one.

Moral of the story, Diamox did nothing to set either of us apart. If anything, the one without the pill did the best. I will never spend the money to buy that horse pill again, I'll just take it slower and train harder.

So yeah take this with a grain of salt, and if you're looking I've got a a near full bottle of diamox for sale real cheap...


pendereki


Apr 17, 2009, 3:16 AM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
tomtom wrote:
Diamox doesn't enhance performance at altitude, it just speeds aclimatization.

Actually, it doesn't even do that.

My research and experience says that it does speed acclimatization. The last two trips to Colorado, I used Diamox and it shortened the period of headaches, lack of appetite, and listlessness from my usual 3-4 days to just a couple of days. For a 12 day trip it was worth getting in a couple of extra days feeling good.
This year I am planning on staying a month and will probably not use Diamox. It really does ruin the taste of beer. Given the choice between beer and Diamox for altitude adjustment, this year I choose three days of good beer, and then I will go climb.


roy_hinkley_jr


Apr 17, 2009, 4:17 PM
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adnix wrote:
Actually, it does do that. UIAA study claims Diamox helps the body to acclimatise to the lack of oxygen.
http://www.mountaineering.ie/...A03-DiamoxEtc(1).pdf

Sorry, that isn't a study. It's an old opinion piece by one doctor. You are confusing reducing the symptoms of AMS with actual acclimatization. It's an important distinction because even though you may not feel too bad it doesn't mean you are ready to go much higher. There are many aspects of acclimatization but the production of red blood cells is among the most important, for which acetazolamide does nothing. Going to an altitude and staying, thanks to Diamox is one thing. Going there, feeling okay, and then pushing much higher can put you in a world of hurt...HAPE/HACE.


altelis


Apr 17, 2009, 4:52 PM
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Re: [roy_hinkley_jr] Diamox on Denali? [In reply to]
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
adnix wrote:
Actually, it does do that. UIAA study claims Diamox helps the body to acclimatise to the lack of oxygen.
http://www.mountaineering.ie/...A03-DiamoxEtc(1).pdf

Sorry, that isn't a study. It's an old opinion piece by one doctor. You are confusing reducing the symptoms of AMS with actual acclimatization. It's an important distinction because even though you may not feel too bad it doesn't mean you are ready to go much higher. There are many aspects of acclimatization but the production of red blood cells is among the most important, for which acetazolamide does nothing. Going to an altitude and staying, thanks to Diamox is one thing. Going there, feeling okay, and then pushing much higher can put you in a world of hurt...HAPE/HACE.

Thank you for saving me from some typing..


reno


Apr 17, 2009, 5:26 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
You are confusing reducing the symptoms of AMS with actual acclimatization. It's an important distinction because even though you may not feel too bad it doesn't mean you are ready to go much higher.

Absolutely correct, and well said.


adnix


Apr 19, 2009, 10:24 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote:
There are many aspects of acclimatization but the production of red blood cells is among the most important, for which acetazolamide does nothing.

Are you sure about this? The UIAA study is not the opinion of only one doctor.

Acetazolamide (Diamox®) is a medication that forces the kidneys to excrete bicarbonate, the base form of carbon dioxide; this re-acidifies the blood, balancing the effects of the hyperventilation that occurs at altitude in an attempt to get oxygen. This re-acidification acts as a respiratory stimulant, particularly at night, reducing or eliminating the periodic breathing pattern common at altitude. Its net effect is to accelerate acclimatization. Acetazolamide isn't a magic bullet, cure of AMS is not immediate. It makes a process that might normally take about 24-48 hours speed up to about 12-24 hours.


adnix


Apr 19, 2009, 10:29 AM
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I've quoted below the most current study based opinion.

Forty-four human subjects were enrolled in the study, in which there were treated for 3 days prior to ascent to 4300 meters and during 1 day at that altitude, either with acetazolamide 125 milligrams twice a day, or with placebo (capsules containing lactulose). Based upon questionnaire answers to determine the presence of AMS, it was determined that administration of acetazolamide (Diamox) reduced the incidence of AMS from 14% to 5%, both in incidence and severity.

http://www.healthline.com/...s/acetazolamide.html


adnix


Apr 19, 2009, 11:00 AM
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More information for those who are concerned.

Double-blind placebo controlled trial were to determine if acetazolamide is capable of preventing high altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) in trekkers traveling between 4250 m (Pheriche)\4350 m (Dingboche) and 5000 m (Lobuje) in Nepal. Complete measurements were performed on 339 of the 364 subjects (164 in the placebo group, 175 in the acetazolamide group). No cases of HAPE were observed in either study group nor were differences in the signs and symptoms of HAPE found between the two groups. The efficacy of acetazolamide against acute mountain sickness, however, was significant with a 21.9% incidence in the placebo group compared to 10.2 % in the acetazolamide group (p < 0.01).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18800957

And to be more complete in my opinion I've added some information about the two other drugs everyone should carry.

Dexamethasone

Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study performed in summer 2003. Ascent from 490 m within 24 hours and stay for 2 nights at 4559 m. 29 adults with previous HAPE. High-altitude pulmonary edema developed in 7 of 9 participants receiving placebo and 1 of the remaining 8 participants receiving tadalafil but in none of the 10 participants receiving dexamethasone Eight of 9 participants receiving placebo, 7 of 10 receiving tadalafil, and 3 of 10 receiving dexamethasone had AMS.
http://www.annals.org/...t/abstract/145/7/497

Nifedipine

Prophylactic application of nifedipine slow release preparation, 20 mg every 8 hours, prevented HAPE in 9 out of 10 subjects with a history of radiographically documented HAPE upon rapid ascent and subsequent stay to an altitude of 4559 m. Seven of 11 comparable subjects who received placebo developed pulmonary edema at 4559 m.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1483797


graniteboy


Apr 22, 2009, 10:04 PM
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Christ...is this thread STILL Going?

If You fools spent HALF as much Time Acclimating as you spend jabbering about Diamox, well....you wouldn't NEED ANY.


(edited to include the word "Fools")


(This post was edited by graniteboy on Apr 22, 2009, 10:05 PM)


TradEddie


Apr 23, 2009, 1:24 AM
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altelis wrote:
Reasons NOT to take diamox:

IT MAKES BEER TASTE LIKE SH**, never a good price to pay.


Partner angry


Apr 23, 2009, 1:35 AM
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TradEddie wrote:
altelis wrote:
Reasons NOT to take diamox:

IT MAKES BEER TASTE LIKE SH**, never a good price to pay.

I thought the beer in Peru tasted better the longer I stayed. I figured I was just getting used to it, not that I was D.


adnix


Apr 23, 2009, 12:16 PM
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graniteboy wrote:
If You fools spent HALF as much Time Acclimating as you spend jabbering about Diamox, well....you wouldn't NEED ANY.

It took me one hour to research this subject. How much do you acclimatize in 30 minutes?

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Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Alpine & Ice

 


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