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scm007
Apr 13, 2009, 12:00 AM
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I need an ascender for TR soloing, all of the previous threads have been "which ascender is best", clearly that just gets everybody's opinion.
I intend to use the ascender on a single strand tying backup knots on another strand and periodically clipping into them. In order to get the best use out of this system my main quantifier is which of these ascenders will slide the smoothest?. Obviously they all need to be able to take a fall. Right now it's either the microcender or the minitraxion, although I'm leaning towards the microcender due to cost.
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irregularpanda
Apr 13, 2009, 12:06 AM
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scm007 wrote: which of these ascenders will slide the smoothest?.
Both.
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shockabuku
Apr 13, 2009, 12:10 AM
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On my 9.8 mm rope the microcender seems to slide the easiest. But I don't have an analytical tool handy to measure the force required.
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james481
Apr 13, 2009, 2:40 AM
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I just tried both a rescuecender and mini-traxion on an Edelweiss 10.5 (so probably more like 10.7 now...) and the rescuecender seems to feed with slightly less force and a little smoother (due to not having teeth probably), but the difference is very small. In practice, when climbing you can't tell a difference.
(This post was edited by james481 on Apr 13, 2009, 2:41 AM)
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scm007
Apr 13, 2009, 2:47 AM
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Thanks for the replies guys, I've purchased the microsender as it was a bit cheaper and I like that it doesn't have teeth.
As a side not, what all are you guys doing to get this to feed the best? Do you attach directly to your belay loop or extend with a sling? Are you guys using chest harnesses? Obviously weighting the rope from below is necessary.
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james481
Apr 13, 2009, 2:56 AM
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I connect my rescuecender to my belay loop, using a Petzl maillon rapide (quick link), because it is shorter than a carabiner and it does not cross-load. I also use a very short sewn sling girthed around the swami and also attached to the maillon to prevent it from sliding all the way down the belay loop. This shortens a fall somewhat and keeps the lower half of the belay loop free for backup carabiners. You can weight the line with coils of rope, your pack or water bottle on a prusik, or anything else you can find. Really, weight or not, the rescuecender will self feed after 10 or 15 feet from just the hanging rope weight. You can see a picture of my solo TR setup here: http://mountainproject.com/v/james_w/106098704
(This post was edited by james481 on Apr 13, 2009, 3:01 AM)
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scm007
Apr 13, 2009, 3:06 AM
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Nice picture. I may also go with a quicklink. As far as using a chest harness what do you think? When I meant "extending" the tie in I meant so that it could better match up with your chest height.
Also I can't tell what you are doing with the other carabiners in that pic. Are you just using those for clipping knots in the other strand?
(This post was edited by scm007 on Apr 13, 2009, 3:08 AM)
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james481
Apr 13, 2009, 3:13 AM
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I haven't used mine with a chest harness, so I can't really comment on how well it would work, but I haven't found it necessary on vertical rock. If you're climbing something severely overhanging or cranking big roofs and are worried about flipping over, I'm sure it would probably help, but I've never found it needed.
Yes, the two locking carabiners (Am'd and Attache) in that pic are for clipping butterfly loops on a back-up strand from the anchor. I'm currently experimenting with replacing those with the mini-traxion though so I can climb without pausing to clip loops. The third carabiner (BD locker) on my leg loop is there for connecting a prusik for rappel back-up.
(This post was edited by james481 on Apr 13, 2009, 3:15 AM)
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scm007
Apr 13, 2009, 3:15 AM
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Yes I was also considering trying to backup with a traxion. The only problem is that you lose the 2nd rope redundancy or having an ascender on each rope which seems like it would feed poorly.
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james481
Apr 13, 2009, 3:27 AM
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I've actually only had the traxion for a couple of weeks, and haven't gotten it out on vertical rock to test yet. However, I did mess around on a low angle slab (same one as in that picture set), and didn't have much trouble getting the traxion to feed on the backup line. The key is getting the attachment lengths right, so that the traxion only bears force if the rescuecender fails (or is sliding down the rope dissipating force), without trailing the traxion so far below that it is hard to manage (and possibly sheathing the rope if you do take a fall onto it). Of course, you have to weight both the main and back-up line (unlike when clipping loops), but my experiments on the slab have me optimistic that it will work pretty well once I try it on more vertical rock. At this point though, that's basically speculation on my part, so YMMV.
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coolcat83
Apr 13, 2009, 4:34 AM
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i use a microscender attached to my belay loop with a belay master biner, no cross loading, i attach the micro to the smaller end of the biner, then a couple slings with autolockers for the backup loops
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gunkiemike
Apr 13, 2009, 12:51 PM
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scm007 wrote: Thanks for the replies guys, I've purchased the microsender as it was a bit cheaper and I like that it doesn't have teeth. As a side not, what all are you guys doing to get this to feed the best? Do you attach directly to your belay loop or extend with a sling? Are you guys using chest harnesses? Obviously weighting the rope from below is necessary.
I would strongly recommend NOT extending it with a sling. If the device is trailing behind you, there's always slack in the system. Slack = bad.
I dislike both the rescu- and microcender because they are "cam loaded" devices (like the old Gibbs ascenders). If you grab the body of the ascender in a fall - which CAN BE something of a reflex - it may not engage. That, and the wider range of rope diameter it works with, is why I use a Petzl Basic. But I'm sure you'll be OK with your setup. Just be aware of its limitations.
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shockabuku
Apr 13, 2009, 1:01 PM
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scm007 wrote: Thanks for the replies guys, I've purchased the microsender as it was a bit cheaper and I like that it doesn't have teeth. As a side not, what all are you guys doing to get this to feed the best? Do you attach directly to your belay loop or extend with a sling? Are you guys using chest harnesses? Obviously weighting the rope from below is necessary.
I used a chest harness once with the microcender. Didn't like it and ended up kinking the cable that attaches the cam to the body of the device. I don't do it anymore. I use a locking biner (maillon rapide is a good idea I just haven't bothered to pick one up) on my belay loop and wrap tape on it to prevent cross loading. To weight the rope doesn't take much, a pair of shoes, excess rope, a full water bottle are all sufficient. I dislike too much weight on the bottom of the rope because then the rope interferes with my movement.
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rocknrock
Apr 13, 2009, 2:28 PM
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Bomber setup very nice, love the quad equalette too.
Interesting rope actually I haven't seen one that's completely dual pattern I was sure it was two ropes at first. I can see the sense in making it that way, no worries about the halfway mark heh. Who makes that rope if I may ask?
As an aside, doesn't putting two locking carabiners together like that introduce the possiblity that they can unlock each other? I experienced this once myself , though mine were not completely suspended in space as yours are, and as they probably should have been (it was master point setup on a gently sloping slab with no real lip). For what it's worth I also had a guide once later tell me this was a no no. Since then I went to using three ovals. Just curious, thanks.
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james481
Apr 13, 2009, 5:49 PM
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rocknrock wrote: Bomber setup very nice, love the quad equalette too.
Yeah, I'm a huge fan of that, and find it very convenient anytime I'm top roping sport routes (most of which around here have the standard two horizontal bolt top anchor configuration). That Mammut sling is dedicated just to that, so I just keep it tied all the time. Just clip the legs to the bolts, run the rope through the power point, and you have a great SRENE (or whatever your acronym of choice) multi-directional anchor that you can hang a jumbo jet from. Very convenient and bomber.
rocknrock wrote: Interesting rope actually I haven't seen one that's completely dual pattern I was sure it was two ropes at first. I can see the sense in making it that way, no worries about the halfway mark heh. Who makes that rope if I may ask?
That rope is an Edelweiss Sharp ARC 10.5. Edelweiss sells several of their ropes with bi-weave patterns (which they refer to as ARC, IIRC). I really like that feature, as it is easy to tell at a glance what side of the rope you're dealing with.
rocknrock wrote: As an aside, doesn't putting two locking carabiners together like that introduce the possiblity that they can unlock each other? I experienced this once myself , though mine were not completely suspended in space as yours are, and as they probably should have been (it was master point setup on a gently sloping slab with no real lip). For what it's worth I also had a guide once later tell me this was a no no. Since then I went to using three ovals. Just curious, thanks.
I've heard of this happening, but never experienced it myself. I think it depends a lot on how the carabiners are shaped and how they are used. In this particular set-up, I don't see much chance of those carabiners doing much of anything. The rope is tied through the anchor with figure eights (instead of running through it like on a top rope), and the weight of the line hanging down keeps the anchor weighted at all times. In other words, there just isn't that much movement going on at the anchor to "jiggle" the biners around until they unlock. However, I do use this same anchor setup fairly frequently for standard slingshot top ropes, and haven't noticed any problems with the biners unlocking themselves. These particular biners seem to be shaped so that, when opposite and opposed like that, they aren't pressing on each others gates very much (you can see the pics / specs of those biners here: http://dmmclimbing.com/...?pid=13&pid2=152). Also, even if there is some interaction between those locking gates that could cause them to unlock, I find the possibility of the rope escaping two opposite and opposed biners, even if they aren't locked, as being very remote, to the point of impossibility. I think the main concern with this comes when using two lockers that can't sit flush with each other and put a sideways force on each others gates when loaded, which could conceivably cause the gates to break, although I've never heard of this actually happening in the field.
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rocknrock
Apr 14, 2009, 4:06 AM
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thanks very much for the informative reply and sharing your setup details, very helpful.
I like that rope as well I think I will pick one up.
I think you're right that with your setup it'd not be a factor with the carabiners.
thanks again
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james481
Apr 15, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Not a problem... happy climbing, and be safe out there! 
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sandstone
Apr 15, 2009, 9:44 PM
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I can also vouch for the Rescucender & quicklink combo. That setup is strong like bull, doesn't have crossloading issues, and is rope friendly (non-toothed cam, with a curved interface pocket for the rope/cam).
As others have said, don't extend your attachment to the ascender, attach directly to your belay loop to keep slack out of your system.
Keeping the quicklink at the top of your belay loop is a good idea, using either the short sling as described by james481, or a simple chest harness. I've used both and they both work well. There's no need to buy a chest harness if you decide to go that way, you can tie your own from webbing. Keep in mind that in this application your seat harness is taking the load, the chest harness is only being used to keep the ascender positioned.
When you bring your knees way up (for example making a high step, or turning a roof) it is possible to unintentionally pinch the rope below the ascender with your body/clothing, and as you move up create some slack in the rope. This has happened to me at least once (yes, the bottom of the rope was weighted). When my body straightened back out the slack fell away. It just illustrates the point that unexpected things can happen, even when you think you've got all the bases covered.
I also use a GriGri for TR solo. It doesn't feed as smoothly as the Rescucender, but it has the big benefit of being pre-rigged for a rappel. If you fall, just rap and start climbing again, without ever changing your rigging. That's sweet.
The GriGri was designed to catch dynamic loads, so in that sense it's more appropriate than an ascender; but I feel comfortable solo TR'ing on either the Rescucender or the Grigri. Which one I use depends on the situation. If I think I'll fall off and need to transition into a rappel from an awkward situation (like hanging out from the wall) then it's usually the GriGri. For easier routes I might use the Rescucender because it feeds so smoothly.
Practice transitioning to a rappel mid-route (i.e. after a fall), and carry on you the necessary gear for doing so. This is especially important if you use an ascender (vs a GriGri). Don't cheat, practice on a free hanging rope, where you can't touch anything but the rope.
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sandstone
Apr 16, 2009, 4:42 PM
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jose32 wrote: ...Any particular reason for the rescue over the micro, does it just feel more burly?
Yes, it is beefier, and that's a benefit because there is the possibility of subjecting it to dynamic loads if slack gets into the system. For me, a more important difference is that the rescucender has a larger cam & a larger rope interface pocket to distribute the (pinching) force on a larger area of rope.
If everything goes according to plan there should be no slack and no dynamic loads, but it can still happen.
In reply to: Do you have to worry about exposed threads with the quick link? If they stick out I'd be concerned about that.
A much larger concern for me is cross loading a biner gate, that's why I use a quicklink instead of a biner. I've looked at that BelayMaster biner, but I still prefer a quicklink for this.
In reply to: Also I thought there were a bunch of no nos on top rope soloing with a grigri.
Specifics? There are no no's associated with just about any piece of equipment.
(This post was edited by sandstone on Apr 17, 2009, 4:17 PM)
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scm007
Apr 17, 2009, 11:52 PM
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What size quicklink to you use?
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sandstone
Apr 18, 2009, 3:06 AM
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10mm
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moose_droppings
Apr 18, 2009, 4:30 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: I dislike both the rescu- and microcender because they are "cam loaded" devices (like the old Gibbs ascenders). If you grab the body of the ascender in a fall - which CAN BE something of a reflex - it may not engage.
To me this is a non issue with these devices. The only way you can grab it and prevent them from engaging is to grab them before you fall while they're following the rope up. If your grabbing it before you fall, well, good thing you got backup knots right. If you grab it after the biner has started pulling down on the device as in a fall, with all your body weight on it you aren't strong enough release it.
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scm007
Apr 19, 2009, 7:35 AM
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So I like the Microcender a lot, but I can already tell that clipping knots on the other strand is going to be annoying, so I am looking for a good backup ascender.
It needs these criteria
1.) *Most important* feeds well, it cannot detract from the utility of the system at all.
2.) Price, as it is a backup I want something cheap.
I don't care if it shreds my rope, it just needs to hold 1 fall. Chances are it won't even hold that.
I am really leaning towards the Petzl Tibloc, and I will definitely buy it if it feeds well.
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sandstone
Apr 19, 2009, 6:27 PM
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In a two rope system, with an ascender on one rope and clip in knots on the other rope, I think of the knots as the primary belay, and the ascender as the backup. In my mind there's a far greater chance of the ascender failing than the clip-in knot.
If you're dead set on a two ascender system, I'd say put up with clipping the knots on the second rope until you have enough coin to buy a good second ascender.
A search on Tiblocs should yield some reasons why you don't want to use them in situations where they can be subjected to dynamic loads.
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