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32ovy32
Apr 23, 2009, 9:27 PM
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I was climbing on a short two pitch climb this weekend with a guy who I typically don't climb much with. On this particular climb, he lead, arrived at a two bolt belay station, then I came up behind him and cleaned.
When I arrived at the belay station, I noticed that the anchor was setup in a manner that I was unaccustomed to and really not that cool with.
He was basically in a hanging belay and tied a double figure eight or "bunny ears" on a bite of the rope that he was tied into. He then clipped the each of the ears (somewhat equalized) to each of the bolts with a locker and was belaying off his me (his second) directly from his belay loop.
This may help:
I was really confused, and the more I think about it, the more unsafe I find it. When I asked, he said that was how he has always done it.
So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that.
Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this?
Anyone use the double figure eight for anything?
Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
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csproul
Apr 23, 2009, 9:31 PM
Post #2 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: I was climbing on a short two pitch climb this weekend with a guy who I typically don't climb much with. On this particular climb, he lead, arrived at a two bolt belay station, then I came up behind him and cleaned. When I arrived at the belay station, I noticed that the anchor was setup in a manner that I was unaccustomed to and really not that cool with. He was basically in a hanging belay and tied a double figure eight or "bunny ears" on a bite of the rope that he was tied into. He then clipped the each of the ears (somewhat equalized) to each of the bolts with a locker and was belaying off his me (his second) directly from his belay loop. This may help: [image]http://mepsconsulting.com/test/temp.jpg[/image] I was really confused, and the more I think about it, the more unsafe I find it. When I asked, he said that was how he has always done it. So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this? Anyone use the double figure eight for anything? Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
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no_email_entered
Apr 23, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #3 of 142
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good to go, or think about it this way----
----how much redundancy does your rope have?
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acorneau
Apr 23, 2009, 9:39 PM
Post #4 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that.
His harness isn't redundant, your harness isn't redundant, the ATC isn't redundant, the belay biner isn't redundant, your rope isn't redundant....
Some things need to be redundant, like anchor points, some do not.
In reply to: Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this?
Yes, assuming you're swinging leads or only doing single pitch. Of course, it's not my preference to belay directly off my belay loop most of the time, however I do it when I need to.
In reply to: Anyone use the double figure eight for anything?
Great knot for a fixed line.
In reply to: Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
No, but that's a whole 'nother problem.
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USnavy
Apr 23, 2009, 9:49 PM
Post #5 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: I was climbing on a short two pitch climb this weekend with a guy who I typically don't climb much with. On this particular climb, he lead, arrived at a two bolt belay station, then I came up behind him and cleaned. When I arrived at the belay station, I noticed that the anchor was setup in a manner that I was unaccustomed to and really not that cool with. He was basically in a hanging belay and tied a double figure eight or "bunny ears" on a bite of the rope that he was tied into. He then clipped the each of the ears (somewhat equalized) to each of the bolts with a locker and was belaying off his me (his second) directly from his belay loop. This may help: [image]http://mepsconsulting.com/test/temp.jpg[/image] I was really confused, and the more I think about it, the more unsafe I find it. When I asked, he said that was how he has always done it. So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this? Anyone use the double figure eight for anything? Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
This method is similar to what Beth Rodden uses and well... she climbs 5.14 trad. I took Beth's multi-pitch class in Red Rocks last month and she taught us to build the anchor using the rope and tie a double loop figure eight similar to what’s in the picture.
I tried her method on a climb and found its actually really efficient, especially if your building trad anchors.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 23, 2009, 9:51 PM)
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kcontratto
Apr 23, 2009, 9:51 PM
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Based on the discription you provided, I don't see anything wrong with the setup.
As many prior threads have pointed out, the belay loop (and the rope) are not technically "redundant" but, in good condition are more than sufficient for their intended use.
There is redundancy in the separate loops which are clipped to separate bolts/hangers.
It seems bomber enough for belaying the 2nd - and I'd have no problem if I was that 2nd climber.
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angry
Apr 23, 2009, 9:51 PM
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As all the other people are saying, it's fine. And from what I can see it's great.
Just for clarification though, was he belaying directly off the anchor or somehow directed through his harness.
For further clarification, was he using an ATC-Guide, Reverso, Toucan, Grigri, or Cinch off the anchor or was he using something like a plain ol' tube style device. This changes (though only somewhat) my opinion of it.
What I think happened is that you climbed with a far more experienced climber who did things different than you'd ever seen. New shit, especially off the deck, tends to freak people out. I hope you didn't burn your bridges with this guy, he might be valuable in your own progression.
FWIW, I've recently had my own beginner to abuse. I kindof make it a point to do something weird every time. It helps one to grasp the overall concept of safe and not safe and less safe and more safe instead of just a rote idea they were told was doctrine.
We need to be concerned about all the roads to our destination, not just the shortest one because sometimes that short road is blocked by flying monkeys.
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angry
Apr 23, 2009, 9:53 PM
Post #8 of 142
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I just looked at the picture again. I saw the extra biner. I thought the belayers loop was a biner. It's clear now.
There was nothing wrong at all with the setup.
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ja1484
Apr 23, 2009, 9:57 PM
Post #9 of 142
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You kids these days, I swear to God, would never survive in a situation where you had to move efficiently.
It's the *rope*. On *two bolts*. The only thing holding you at your end is a single figure 8 tie-in on the *rope*.
The bolts are redundant and are not going to fail. The rope is never redundant and if it fails you're fucked regardless.
The system is ONLY ever as strong as the weakest link, and the weakest link in your diagram is your tie-in. There's absolutely nothing wrong with his system, and it's the exact one I would use if I were swapping leads.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Apr 24, 2009, 2:09 AM)
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fxgranite
Apr 23, 2009, 10:07 PM
Post #10 of 142
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It's an excellent choice for an anchor. to reiterate the masses above: It's perfectly fine.
Nice diagram btw.
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budman
Apr 23, 2009, 10:21 PM
Post #11 of 142
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As everyone has said it's cool. I belay directly off my harness but usually have the rope go through a point on the anchor in case I have to take the weight of the second or do a self rescue. That way the weight of the second goes up to the anchor and then to me. Also prefer a double bowline for anchor points at the same level and 2 separately tied figure 8's on a bite for anchors one above the other.
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kachoong
Apr 23, 2009, 11:25 PM
Post #12 of 142
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Yeah... as said, it's fine. I also would have re-directed off one of the bolts or the master point if belaying off my harness. Otherwise I'd belay straight off the master point with one of the autolocking devices mentioned by Angry.
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chossmonkey
Apr 23, 2009, 11:34 PM
Post #13 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that.
You have to be kidding.
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chossmonkey
Apr 23, 2009, 11:35 PM
Post #14 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: I was climbing on a short two pitch climb this weekend with a guy who I typically don't climb much with. On this particular climb, he lead, arrived at a two bolt belay station, then I came up behind him and cleaned. When I arrived at the belay station, I noticed that the anchor was setup in a manner that I was unaccustomed to and really not that cool with. He was basically in a hanging belay and tied a double figure eight or "bunny ears" on a bite of the rope that he was tied into. He then clipped the each of the ears (somewhat equalized) to each of the bolts with a locker and was belaying off his me (his second) directly from his belay loop. This may help: I was really confused, and the more I think about it, the more unsafe I find it. When I asked, he said that was how he has always done it. So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this? Anyone use the double figure eight for anything? Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
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silascl
Apr 23, 2009, 11:36 PM
Post #15 of 142
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chossmonkey wrote: 32ovy32 wrote: So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. You have to be kidding.
I'm almost certain he is kidding. This has to be a clever troll...
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gimmeslack
Apr 23, 2009, 11:40 PM
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Sounds like the "atomic clip" per John Long's book?
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no_email_entered
Apr 23, 2009, 11:45 PM
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silascl wrote: chossmonkey wrote: 32ovy32 wrote: So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. You have to be kidding. I'm almost certain he is kidding. This has to be a clever troll...
i'm gonna go with boulderer on a rope for $200, alex
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2009, 12:07 AM
Post #18 of 142
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32ovy32 wrote: I was climbing on a short two pitch climb this weekend with a guy who I typically don't climb much with. On this particular climb, he lead, arrived at a two bolt belay station, then I came up behind him and cleaned. When I arrived at the belay station, I noticed that the anchor was setup in a manner that I was unaccustomed to and really not that cool with. He was basically in a hanging belay and tied a double figure eight or "bunny ears" on a bite of the rope that he was tied into. He then clipped the each of the ears (somewhat equalized) to each of the bolts with a locker and was belaying off his me (his second) directly from his belay loop. This may help: [image]http://mepsconsulting.com/test/temp.jpg[/image] I was really confused, and the more I think about it, the more unsafe I find it. When I asked, he said that was how he has always done it. So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. Anyone think it's okay to setup a belay like this? Anyone use the double figure eight for anything? Anyone had a similar experience climbing with sketch partners?
Most climbers set and follow each other's belaying system like how cows follow each other before dusk.
No one ever ask, WHY THE FUC* you need to attach your belay to your harness when you got a solid fuc*ing anchor right next to you as belaying anchor .
So repeat after me
I AM A COW and I follow other COWS without asking questions
MOAAAAAAAAAAA
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bennydh
Apr 24, 2009, 12:08 AM
Post #19 of 142
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I'm going to go with the "second best artist on rc.noob", behind Majid and his arrows of course.
Maybe Majid can scribble on this(fix it), and show us another rc.noob masterpiece. :)
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seatbeltpants
Apr 24, 2009, 12:26 AM
Post #20 of 142
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angry wrote: FWIW, I've recently had my own beginner to abuse. I kindof make it a point to do something weird every time. It helps one to grasp the overall concept of safe and not safe and less safe and more safe instead of just a rote idea they were told was doctrine.
nicely said - i'm new to this game and think this is spot on. far too many of the other inexperienced guys i climb with are convinced that there is one right way to do things such as attach to an anchor, throw around a few misunderstodd quotes about redundancy, and think they're talking sense. when i'm half way up a multipitch i'd much prefer my partner was engaging his brain and mixing things up a little than doing everything by rote regardless of the situation.
angry wrote: We need to be concerned about all the roads to our destination, not just the shortest one because sometimes that short road is blocked by flying monkeys.
dammit, can one have two signature line quotes?
steve
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graniteboy
Apr 24, 2009, 12:37 AM
Post #21 of 142
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As someone else above said, a system is only as strong as it's weakest link.
And the weakest link in this case is the original poster and his inability to understand a simple, safe, effective, and widely used belay system.
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 12:51 AM
Post #22 of 142
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majid_sabet wrote: Most climbers set and follow each other's belaying system like how cows follow each other before dusk. No one ever ask, WHY THE FUC* you need to attach your belay to your harness when you got a solid fuc*ing anchor right next to you as belaying anchor . So repeat after me I AM A COW and I follow other COWS without asking questions MOAAAAAAAAAAA
TRANSLATION:
'there are too many variables to rigging an anchor; there isn't only one way to do it, so you should learn as many safe ways as possible so you don't become a stat that i post in the A&I forum'
either that or he's saying---
--- 'cows sound different in my country'
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silascl
Apr 24, 2009, 12:53 AM
Post #23 of 142
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no_email_entered wrote: silascl wrote: chossmonkey wrote: 32ovy32 wrote: So, I see two points that do not have redundancy: his belay loop, and the bit of rope that he was tied into and I'm not okay with that. You have to be kidding. I'm almost certain he is kidding. This has to be a clever troll... i'm gonna go with boulderer on a rope for $200, alex
But the 'belay loop is not redundant' thing is so cliche I find it hard to believe.
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andrewG
Apr 24, 2009, 1:15 AM
Post #24 of 142
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So do you have more than one piece going to each loop? Or are you talking bolted anchors on a trad route?
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2009, 5:23 AM
Post #25 of 142
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no_email_entered wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Most climbers set and follow each other's belaying system like how cows follow each other before dusk. No one ever ask, WHY THE FUC* you need to attach your belay to your harness when you got a solid fuc*ing anchor right next to you as belaying anchor . So repeat after me I AM A COW and I follow other COWS without asking questions MOAAAAAAAAAAA TRANSLATION: 'there are too many variables to rigging an anchor; there isn't only one way to do it, so you should learn as many safe ways as possible so you don't become a stat that i post in the A&I forum' either that or he's saying--- --- 'cows sound different in my country'
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