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tradrenn
Apr 24, 2009, 9:15 AM
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I would have to say that I don't like this method, because it can't be done one handed.
Other than that it's OK.
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grampacharlie
Apr 24, 2009, 1:53 PM
Post #27 of 142
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If I remember correctly how to tie this "double figure 8" it leave you pulling an extra bite though the nearly formed 8 to give you a slightly adjustable masterpoint. The two ears are not redundant, but they are adjustable to a degree.
Not how I would do it, but being that the rope is the only peice of gear that we do not have the pleasure to have be redundant most times, it would probably be fine.
Carry a cordellet.
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king_rat
Apr 24, 2009, 3:13 PM
Post #28 of 142
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The only disadvantage with this setup is that it is difficult to escape the system in the event of an emergency. Otherwise I would use this in the right circumstances.
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billcoe_
Apr 24, 2009, 3:28 PM
Post #29 of 142
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majid_sabet wrote:  OMG thats great stuff Majid! 5 stars! Is the thin cow Angry? BTW, how is it that these cows don't know that use of the figure 8 is dangerous? To the first guy. It's great. (nice diagram too). Last time I was in Red Rocks Ujahn and I followed 2 guides up Epinphrine. As we were catching them every pitch, they remarked to both of us that they'd never seen the climbing rope used like we did it. Basically, directly from the tie in straight up to 3 pieces in line, equalized. No 7mm bullshit cordellete. They were using and had only seen cordelletes used, evidenly in many configurations though. However, what we were doing was much faster and stronger than what they were doing....and they were looking at it with much curiosity depending on if I led up or Ujahn did, they checked each of our setups extensively, and commented to both of us that they'd never see that b4. Good on you for looking and questioning. That's how you get to be an old person in this game. More cows Majid, you rock:-)
(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Apr 24, 2009, 3:33 PM)
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 4:33 PM
Post #30 of 142
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king_rat wrote: The only disadvantage with this setup is that it is difficult to escape the system in the event of an emergency. Otherwise I would use this in the right circumstances.
why more difficult? if the bolts are within reach it would be easier imo---
---even if I had a cow as a second
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ladyscarlett
Apr 24, 2009, 6:25 PM
Post #31 of 142
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I've never seen this before, but have heard of it in passing, but never in relation to how to use said "bunny ears."
Thanks for the learning opportunity! Everyone else on here might know everything, but this thread taught me a new knot and anchor rigging system - huzzah!
So in the past, while climbing trad, the anchors are generally 3+ pieces (when possible, which seems to be a lot...).
Please don't laugh too hard at the newbie, but in true upstart follower fashion, I have questions! This system looks pretty specific to a two point anchor. Is there a circumstance where you would/could/want to/be able to adapt it for a 3+ point anchor?
What are the advantages of this over the sliding x/equalette? And what situations you've been in, where this was "THE WAY" because of the circumstances. I can guess a few, but would be interested in seeing what all of you come up with as I know I can't think of them all.
Moooooo!
Cheers!
ls
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budman
Apr 24, 2009, 6:53 PM
Post #32 of 142
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To answer your questions, it's fast and simple. It cuts down on the gear you need to bring. Just to go over a basic concept, One bomber anchor, lets say a tree or boulder, 2 bolts or 3 gear placements. This has always been consider the minimum for anchors. The 4 knots I use for the anchor would be double figure 8, double bowline, figure 8 on a bite, and the clover hitch. With these you could equalize any anchor within reason without a bunch of other gear. With practice this system is fast and light which is right, so I was told. Worst case scenario all gear fails but your anchor. Your belaying off your harness. The rope from your harness should go to piece of gear nearest you and progress upward to the upper most piece. So when your belay device is loaded the force equal on all pieces. I always set my anchor for worst case.
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 6:56 PM
Post #33 of 142
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ladyscarlett wrote: This system looks pretty specific to a two point anchor. Is there a circumstance where you would/could/want to/be able to adapt it for a 3+ point anchor? What are the advantages of this over the sliding x/equalette? And what situations you've been in, where this was "THE WAY" because of the circumstances. I can guess a few, but would be interested in seeing what all of you come up with as I know I can't think of them all.
you could figure instead of each bolt one [or both] the ears connected via draws or sliding-x to two different placements, giving some eq and more points---
---also keep in mind that with all the variables [number of points, extensions, rope rigging or cordy if you run a full length pitch, direct/indirect belay, right side/left side belay, etc], especially on long, alpine multi-pitches, you can easily do 10+ pitches and rig 10 entirely different anchors. best to file everything you see and evaluate for safety in the ol' memory bank
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marde
Apr 24, 2009, 7:07 PM
Post #34 of 142
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Looks like a nice trick.
For good bolts this is way too complicated imo;
I'd just use the rope clove hitch myself to one bolt, then back that up with a clove hitch on the other bolt.
redundant (ok still only one rope, harness...), easy, fast but not equalizing.
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desertwanderer81
Apr 24, 2009, 7:15 PM
Post #35 of 142
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ladyscarlett wrote: I've never seen this before, but have heard of it in passing, but never in relation to how to use said "bunny ears." Thanks for the learning opportunity! Everyone else on here might know everything, but this thread taught me a new knot and anchor rigging system - huzzah! So in the past, while climbing trad, the anchors are generally 3+ pieces (when possible, which seems to be a lot...). Please don't laugh too hard at the newbie, but in true upstart follower fashion, I have questions! This system looks pretty specific to a two point anchor. Is there a circumstance where you would/could/want to/be able to adapt it for a 3+ point anchor? What are the advantages of this over the sliding x/equalette? And what situations you've been in, where this was "THE WAY" because of the circumstances. I can guess a few, but would be interested in seeing what all of you come up with as I know I can't think of them all. Moooooo! Cheers! ls
Also, try to make sure you set your gear in different rock features! Never set 3 cams into one crack ;) .... Well if possible.
I am sure some people will disagree, but in my opinion is that any of the "static equalization" and "dynamic equalization" methods work almost equally well. To the point that it really doesn't matter which method you use. I personally like my figure 8's, but a magic X works well too.
However I will state though that belaying right off the anchors is superior to belaying off your Harness when belaying from up top.
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 7:28 PM
Post #36 of 142
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desertwanderer81 wrote: I am sure some people will disagree, but in my opinion is that any of the "static equalization" and "dynamic equalization" methods work almost equally well. To the point that it really doesn't matter which method you use. I personally like my figure 8's, but a magic X works well too.
i have been known to break out in a James Brown shimmy at belays---
---can i get a 'dynamic'! yeah! uh!
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desertwanderer81
Apr 24, 2009, 7:31 PM
Post #37 of 142
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no_email_entered wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: I am sure some people will disagree, but in my opinion is that any of the "static equalization" and "dynamic equalization" methods work almost equally well. To the point that it really doesn't matter which method you use. I personally like my figure 8's, but a magic X works well too. i have been known to break out in a James Brown shimmy at belays--- ---can i get a 'dynamic'! yeah! uh!
Whoa! I feel good, I knew that I would
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theguy
Apr 24, 2009, 7:37 PM
Post #38 of 142
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no_email_entered wrote: king_rat wrote: The only disadvantage with this setup is that it is difficult to escape the system. why more difficult?
Because you have to escape from the belay: if the belay is from the anchor, you don't have to.
ladyscarlett wrote: Is there a circumstance where you would/could/want to/be able to adapt it for a 3+ point anchor?
Yes: multi-eared eight on a bight
ladyscarlett wrote: What are the advantages of this over the sliding x/equalette?
Less gear, quicker, potentially more dynamic; for more, see "Climbing Anchors"
(This post was edited by theguy on Apr 24, 2009, 8:09 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Apr 24, 2009, 7:40 PM
Post #39 of 142
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desertwanderer81 wrote: However I will state though that belaying right off the anchors is superior to belaying off your Harness when belaying from up top.
You say this, but as of yet, I have never belayed straight off the anchor, even when belaying from the top. When asking my more experienced buddies in different situations, they still say "off the harness - you need the practice" . I'm sure the time will come when they say "off the anchor", but it hasn't happened yet. The belay off the harness/off the anchor discussion is definitely an "it depends" issue, and I'm still learning what it depends on...just like when to use what rigging system! Still getting comfortable with the Equallette, but now I have another one to practice!
thanks!
ls
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 7:45 PM
Post #40 of 142
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theguy wrote: no_email_entered wrote: king_rat wrote: The only disadvantage with this setup is that it is difficult to escape the system. why more difficult? Because you have to escape from the belay: if the belay is from the anchor, you don't have to.
i meant why more difficult versus a different rigging [cordy], not versus a direct or a redirect---
---which would be obviously easier
(This post was edited by no_email_entered on Apr 24, 2009, 7:46 PM)
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angry
Apr 24, 2009, 7:46 PM
Post #41 of 142
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I find with my anchors, one good hard tug and I've escaped the belay.
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no_email_entered
Apr 24, 2009, 7:46 PM
Post #42 of 142
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angry wrote: one good hard tug and I've escaped the belay.
or soiled your pants
(This post was edited by no_email_entered on Apr 24, 2009, 7:47 PM)
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ladyscarlett
Apr 24, 2009, 7:46 PM
Post #43 of 142
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theguy wrote: ladyscarlett wrote: Is there a circumstance where you would/could/want to/be able to adapt it for a 3+ point anchor? Yes: multi-eared eight on a bight
didn't work
try again?
Cheers
ls
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desertwanderer81
Apr 24, 2009, 8:00 PM
Post #44 of 142
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ladyscarlett wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: However I will state though that belaying right off the anchors is superior to belaying off your Harness when belaying from up top. You say this, but as of yet, I have never belayed straight off the anchor, even when belaying from the top. When asking my more experienced buddies in different situations, they still say "off the harness - you need the practice" . I'm sure the time will come when they say "off the anchor", but it hasn't happened yet. The belay off the harness/off the anchor discussion is definitely an "it depends" issue, and I'm still learning what it depends on...just like when to use what rigging system! Still getting comfortable with the Equallette, but now I have another one to practice! thanks! ls
I highly suggest anyone who is leading multi-pitch to get one of these babies. It's great! You can even belay two people at once. Basically you use the hoop in the back to rig the Guide so that it auto-locks someone as they're following.
My reason for belaying directly off the anchor from the top is that the belayer won't get yanked around if the follower falls. I am sure that you can situate yourself so that this isn't an issue....but it's just not as comfortable, hehe.
For the same reason, I like to set a cam quickly as a redirect off the belay station. If you fall on that cam, then it greatly reduces the forces on your belayer.
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theguy
Apr 24, 2009, 8:11 PM
Post #45 of 142
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ladyscarlett wrote: didn't work try again?
Fixed
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theguy
Apr 24, 2009, 8:27 PM
Post #46 of 142
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angry wrote: I find with my anchors, one good hard tug and I've escaped the belay.
And so has your second: evidently neither a goat nor a cow, but one of Monty Python's plummeting sheep
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ladyscarlett
Apr 24, 2009, 8:27 PM
Post #47 of 142
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just tried it out
cool!!
Going to see if I can try it out this weekend!
cheers for spreading the knowledge!
ls
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kachoong
Apr 24, 2009, 8:36 PM
Post #48 of 142
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no_email_entered wrote: ---also keep in mind that with all the variables [number of points, extensions, rope rigging or cordy if you run a full length pitch, direct/indirect belay, right side/left side belay, etc], especially on long, alpine multi-pitches, you can easily do 10+ pitches and rig 10 entirely different anchors. best to file everything you see and evaluate for safety in the ol' memory bank
^^This is a key point. Agreed... keep the above belay set-up in your arsenal.
ladyscarlett wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: However I will state though that belaying right off the anchors is superior to belaying off your Harness when belaying from up top. You say this, but as of yet, I have never belayed straight off the anchor, even when belaying from the top. When asking my more experienced buddies in different situations, they still say "off the harness - you need the practice" . I'm sure the time will come when they say "off the anchor", but it hasn't happened yet. The belay off the harness/off the anchor discussion is definitely an "it depends" issue, and I'm still learning what it depends on...just like when to use what rigging system! Still getting comfortable with the Equallette, but now I have another one to practice! thanks! ls
As stated, the above anchor-belay setup is good in few situations, but it's certainly not quicker than a sliding x (for two bolts I prefer this, using limiter knots) and as mentioned requires you to escape the belay if you're belaying off your harness. Re-directing through the anchor is something you should probably try next. It would makes things quicker in escaping the belay and also be more comfortable in the event your second falls.... that is if you MUST belay from your harness. I used to belay off my harness when I was a noob, until my 200lb buddy fell and the rope went across my leg... never again. I'd probably only belay straight off my harness these days if my anchor was suspect and I had a good stance.
theguy wrote: angry wrote: I find with my anchors, one good hard tug and I've escaped the belay. And so has your second: evidently neither a goat nor a cow, but one of Monty Python's plummeting sheep
LMAO!! 
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kylekienitz
Apr 24, 2009, 9:27 PM
Post #49 of 142
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I have never paid too much attention to forces and the like, but I would like to clear something up.
It is my understanding that belaying directly off the harness, or off the anchor takes only the force of the second (on the anchor) in the event of a fall. However, if the belay is from the harness to the anchor and then to the second the force (on the anchor) increases due to the added force of the belayer trying to equalize the force of the second.
Is this correct?
thanks,
kk
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jt512
Apr 24, 2009, 9:31 PM
Post #50 of 142
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marde wrote: Looks like a nice trick. For good bolts this is way too complicated imo; I'd just use the rope clove hitch myself to one bolt, then back that up with a clove hitch on the other bolt. redundant (ok still only one rope, harness...), easy, fast but not equalizing.
Euro. Ignore.
Jay
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