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climbchick
Nov 23, 2002, 6:56 PM
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OK, I don't have a huge amount of experience but so far I much prefer a bomber nut to a cam. Makes me feel very secure.
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beyond_gravity
Nov 23, 2002, 7:48 PM
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^ ^
No offence, this is not a personal attack but I want to say this....
I hate it when people say they will take a bomber nut over a cam anyday. Of course you will! Like...it's BOMBER!
Bomber is Bomber...
Bomber nut or Bomber Cam? I'm gonna take the cam because it's most likley gonna be faster to place.
Now, I know what you mean by a bomber nut will make you feel better then a bomber cam, because, well...you can eaisly tell that there is no way it's coming out!
Same thing goes for bolts...
"I'd take a bomber gear placement over a manky bolt anyday"
Thats like saying that you would take a well placed Glue in bolt in Granite over a RP.
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foolry
Nov 23, 2002, 7:57 PM
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I think trad hugs a nut. (no pun intended) I say drill a bolt. Sport climbing rules.
P.S. I think that Shiloj IS a "Fag". and should "Chill Out"
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soaring_bird
Nov 25, 2002, 6:24 AM
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A route like Reed's Direct in Yosemite would be down right frightening if you had only cams. Conversely, Supercrack in Indian Creek would be equally scary (essentially turned into an X route) if you took hexes and no cams. So the solution is to be proficient at both, use the appropriate tool in the appropriate application, and be humble enough to downclimb to save your arse if you made the wrong choice of gear and started up something with the wrong gear. Having started leading in the '70's before cams were invented, my passive gear (including hexes) will always have a special place in my heart and on my rack. There's absolutely nothing sweeter than a cam at a pumpy crux where you can just fire it in, clip, and keep going. Cams are largely responsible for, or at least have contributed significantly to the increase in trad climbing standards. I ponder whether some of the classic Valley cracks like Crimson Cringe, the Salathe headwall, etc. would have been done yet if all we had is passive gear (assuming they did not become totally bolted clip-ups instead.) Passive gear makes for cheap rap anchors in the mountains as well.
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tradguy
Nov 25, 2002, 7:03 PM
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Passive pro is definitely NOT on the way out. For one thing, try finding a cam to replace a #3 BD Stopper. Cams don't come that small.
For another, passive pro is really cheap compared to cams, which is why you always find nuts left behind when people bail. Also, passive weighs considerably less than cams, so you can carry more pieces with less weight.
beyond_gravity:
cams are nice, but hexes are still really handy. Use them for a while before you give up on them. They might grow on you. And for the record, you can only get 1 tech friend for what you spent on the hexes ($49 each).
Click here for a very thorough discussion/argument about hexes vs. cams. Or, just check out the last page and pan down about 3/4 of the way (ignoring the long-winded Physics discussion) to see my summary and argument in favor of having hexes. (Note, this was as a supplement to cams, not a replacement.)
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-11-25 11:07 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 4:03 AM
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Quote:
beyond_gravity:
cams are nice, but hexes are still really handy. Use them for a while before you give up on them.
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough.
-Jay
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apollodorus
Nov 27, 2002, 5:21 AM
Post #32 of 100
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"If it fits, you must commit."
- Johnny Cochran
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jefesuave
Nov 27, 2002, 7:06 AM
Post #33 of 100
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Quote:
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough.
-Jay
or maybe you should learn how to place them
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 4:53 PM
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Quote:
or maybe you should learn how to place them
Or maybe you should try climbing something harder than 5.6.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-27 08:54 ]
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bandycoot
Nov 27, 2002, 5:36 PM
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I don't understand.... everyone keeps mentioning tricams like passive gear. They're about as active as can be (unless set passively of course but I doubt that is what you're referring to). Also, cam placements are great. A few people have said they think their placements are sketchy. Almost all of my lead falls (if not all) have been on cams and they DO NOT BUDGE. I love em, but I love passive too!
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 5:48 PM
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"Try climbing harder than 5.6"
What sort of comment is that?
There are plenty of 5.6 trad leads out there that are well worth getting on, even if youre a 5.10 leader.
As a beginning trad leader, when I'm out on a 5.6, I try to take the time to place a hex so I can be more familiar with them, as well as start learning to be able to just look at a crack and know what gear is best. Taking that time to work the hex not only teaches me how the hex works, but it also helps me learn the crack. Just jamming a cam in is fine if youre pumping hard, but it wont always teach you what placing a hex will teach you. Versatility. Makes rock climbers better.
That way, when I'm out on a nice little 5.10, I wont have to think about which piece to place, because I'll already know.
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 5:51 PM
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Camp Tricams are a different thing then Cams (i.e. Active camming units).
B_G: Is it jsut possible that you don't have enough patience to properly place a hex. If you practice you won't be hanging around for 5 minutes placing a hex, it'll be as easy as placing any other piece. By automatically dimissing them in your short climbing career you are limiting your climbing, your opportunities and your skills. It's much easier to place cams than hexes but nothing worth having come without a fight.
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hugepedro
Nov 27, 2002, 6:28 PM
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I don't think it's THAT much easier to place a cam than it is to place a hex or a nut. Sure, if the crack is reasonably uniform, a cam will go in faster, but I find that many cracks are not all that uniform and there are plenty of little constrictions in the interior that will take hexes and nuts beautifully. I think what it comes down to is being able to "see" the placement regardless if it's a cam or a hex/nut. If you can "see" a hex placement and make a fairly accurate guess as to which size it will take, you can place the hex just as fast as a cam. You can place it even faster than a cam if the particular placement is better suited for a hex. When I started leading I relied mostly on cams, but I found that I often fiddled with them when trying to set them in placements where there was little uniformity to the crack. Now I find that I'm "seeing" hex placements much more readily, and when one presents itself I can get a hex in way faster than a cam. I think it just comes with practice and developing your eye for the placement.
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ride
Nov 27, 2002, 6:30 PM
Post #39 of 100
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Quote:
Nah. Just give up on them. Hexes are lame. Hexes require too much fiddling. If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough
Damn elitists...
Hexes are god!
try carrying the same size range in cams as a full set of hexes will give you, it's like a 10-15lb difference. (at least it feels like that much)
jb: spend the time learning how to place them you won't regret it in the long run (no pun intended )
I agree with Micronut in that you should try to place passive stuff first and "save" your cams for when you get pumped.
[ This Message was edited by: ride on 2002-11-27 10:32 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
As a beginning trad leader, when I'm out on a 5.6, I try to take the time to place a hex so I can be more familiar with them, as well as start learning to be able to just look at a crack and know what gear is best. Taking that time to work the hex not only teaches me how the hex works, but it also helps me learn the crack.
The only thing that placing a hex "teaches you" is how to place a hex (which isn't exactly rocket science, anyway). Once you start leading harder cracks, you won't want to hang on for the extra time it takes to place a hex instead of a cam. Chances are you'll do what I and every partner I climb with does: leave your old hexes in the closet. Since (if you progress beyond moderate trad climbing) you will eventually stop carrying them anyway, there is no point, except for deferring the cost of a second set of cams, to buying them in the first place.
-Jay
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 6:45 PM
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And you are an experienced leader, beginers like B_G aren't. Hexes have their place, just because you choose not to use them, doesn't mean they are useless. That's a tad self-centered. They are great as anchors, and I've seen them placed as quickly as nuts or cams.
Also other climbers have other motivations. According to your argument, you have to climb hard or you aren't climbing. Other people may be out to enjoy the view or the sport itself....not the grade.
*edited for spelling *
[ This Message was edited by: krillen on 2002-11-27 10:51 ]
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 6:55 PM
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Quote:
According to your argument, you have to climb hard or you aren't climbing.
Show me where I said that.
Quote:
Other people may be out to enjoy the view or the sport itself....not the grade.
Just because you are a weak climber, don't assume that stronger ones climb just for the grade. On the other hand, if you're not climbing at least partly for the challenge, then why not just walk up the path on the back side.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-27 10:59 ]
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climb512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:26 PM
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I like passive as much as possible, its good practice for finding bomber placements. Cams are great,especially when at your limit for a fast placement,howerever if you place more passive when not stressed, I have found I can now place passive just as quick(almost) and I trust my placements more. Now I am not just jamming a cam in a iffy spot. So now my rack is lighter as I do not need to carry as many cams.
Have a great holiday
ps.ice is in the daks!
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 7:38 PM
Post #44 of 100
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"If you can hang out and place a hex, you're not climbing hard enough." - or maybe I was just reading too much into what you said?
Some people climb Trad for the mental challenge. They enjoy finding good placements, kind of like a puzzle. Some people enjoy the view, the exposure, or getting out in to nature. If they do it on a 5.6, so what? This isn't my style, I enjoy the physical challange, along with all of those other things, but I still think hexes have their place, and can be utilized as quickly and effectively as any other piece of gear on your rack. If you abjectly dismiss them you are limiting you options. personally I like to have my options open.
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vegastradguy
Nov 27, 2002, 7:42 PM
Post #45 of 100
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Why just not buy the hexes?
Here's why.
The reason people tell beginners not to use cams is because cams walk. How many 5.6-5.8 climbs have you been up and found at least 3 cams stuck in the wall? I have yet to climb a single pitch easier than 5.8 and NOT see a lost cam!
As I have climbed more, I have come to prefer hexes in many situations because I am NOT pumped on lead, and I don't read cracks well enough yet in many situations to trust my cams not to walk.
That said, I still use cams if its a perfect placement or if I'm pumped out and I need a fast piece, but I prefer the hexes to give me the training I need to read the cracks for the cams. Stoppers can't do that because they are too small for most of my cams, but my hexes have a nice crossover.
In the long run, I may decrease my hex usage in favor of cams, but honestly, I LOVE my hexes. I placed every single one of them on my last multipitch, along with all my cams. I can't imagine not having a nice set of hexes along with all my other gear.
Not to mention having 3 extra large hexes as bail pieces. Ain't no way I'm leaving 2 or 3 cams in the wall to bail!
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:43 PM
Post #46 of 100
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Quote:If you abjectly dismiss them [hexes] you are limiting you options.
No, in practice, you are increasing your options. If you carry (extra) cams instead of hexes, you have more placement options, not fewer.
-Jay
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jefesuave
Nov 27, 2002, 7:46 PM
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Wow jt512 Im impressed that just by looking at what kind of gear i place you know what grade I climb. Now thats impressive. And who are you to tell me that Im not climbing hard enough? If I were only a 5.6 climber, and that were as hard as I wanted to climb, then that is plenty hard enough for me. Get over yourself.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
The reason people tell beginners not to use cams is because cams walk.
Who the hell is telling beginners not to use cams in the first place, much less because they can walk if not correctly placed?
-Jay
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krillen
Nov 27, 2002, 7:54 PM
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I disagree JT. By increasing your rack weight (Cams vs Hexes) you are decreasing the variety of climbs you can do (assuming you have the same climbing ability/Strength in both situations). More weight on you harness increases the work your muscles have to perform.
Also you are decreasing the variety of placements you can use. By definition a wider variety of gear will have more options for placement then more numbers of the same piece.
There are lot so places you can put a hex that a cam won't work, and vice versa. But if you have both kinds of gear you can make placements in both situations. If you only have cams, you can't.
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jt512
Nov 27, 2002, 7:57 PM
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Quote:
Wow jt512 Im impressed that just by looking at what kind of gear i place you know what grade I climb.
Actually, I never thought about it that way, but I'd say that you could guess how hard someone climbs by the hexes they carry, if any. I'd say it was something like this:
Shiny hexes, no cams 5.5
Shiny hexes, shiny cams 5.6
Hexes, shiny cams 5.7
Hexes and cams 5.8
Cams only 5.9 +
Really banged up hexes slung with cord 5.11+ offwidth
-Jay
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