|
|
|
|
lostcause
Jun 22, 2009, 3:24 PM
Post #1 of 40
(3261 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 118
|
Here's a good one. My company has a very nice fitness reimbursement plan where they will refund 50% of your gym membership every year to encourage employees to stay in shape. It's very generous actually and this year I decided to try getting my climbing gym membership reimbursed instead of the regular gym. Denied!
Why? According to our HR dept: “The purpose of the Fitness Reimbursement Program is to encourage employees and their families to participate in a regular fitness program and to provide partial reimbursement for health club memberships or stationary exercise equipment for their home.”
Therefore your membership for the Climbing Gym does not fit within the above guidelines because it is considered more recreational verses core cardio/strength training programs.
Hmmm, I'm guessing no one in HR here has ever done much climbing. I've already started my rebuttal but thought I'd see if anyone here had something else I could add.
|
|
|
|
|
DaveEscobar
Jun 22, 2009, 3:29 PM
Post #2 of 40
(3254 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2009
Posts: 26
|
My local rock gym has some equipment in it. If yours does you could always argue that. They would give it to you if you went to a gym that also had a rock wall. WHy wouldn't they if you went to a rock wall that also had some "stationary" equipment?
I bet you're in better shape then most of the metal lifters at your work too.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jun 22, 2009, 3:35 PM
Post #3 of 40
(3247 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
You might see if you can find a health club with a climbing wall.
The Wall, inside The Gym, in Ft. Collins sports a fantastic (not cheesy little thing) wall and a pool, tennis courts, weights, spinning, yoga, etc.
Where I'm currently living (Denver) doesn't have such a thing but I've seen it in other places.
As for your rebuttal, will they actually look at it? Many times their mind is made up. Take some pictures of the fitness equipment (my home gym has free weights, bikes, elipticals, punching bags, and even a weight machine or two. This is at the Rockn and Jamn in Denver. I imagine if you wanted to, you could focus on that stuff instead of the huge climbing gym surrounding it.
If your gym doesn't have any traditional health club stuff, you might be out of luck.
|
|
|
|
|
gblauer
Moderator
Jun 22, 2009, 3:43 PM
Post #4 of 40
(3237 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2002
Posts: 2824
|
My company pays 50% as well. They didn't care that it was a climbing gym.
That said, when I expensed cross country skis, they didn't accept that charge. They only reimburse: bikes, kayaks, home gym equpment, down hill skis etc.
There was NO discussion about the list of exclusions, it was simply EXCLUDED. Very frustrating.
My suggestion, write a well worded letter explaining your view and put some strong supporting documentation together. let them know that this isn't an "arcade attraction", rather a serious gym workout where you particpate x days per week.
|
|
|
|
|
shaylily
Jun 22, 2009, 4:59 PM
Post #5 of 40
(3184 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2005
Posts: 42
|
I'd like to hear your response as I suspect that I will face this problem with our new insurance plan. It never occurred to me to ask about bikes. I am looking at getting a new one.
What about mentioning the raised heart rate and what muscles are involved i.e., similar to a regular gym? Perhaps copying some articles from a climbing mag that has some workouts in it. I seem to remember a few of them. Make sure you mention that the workouts are from elite athletes who make a living from this activity. You can also advise them that this is what has kept you in shape (and healthy) and there is no interest in regular gyms. The climbing gym is your "regular fitness program."
|
|
|
|
|
lostcause
Jun 22, 2009, 5:14 PM
Post #6 of 40
(3174 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 22, 2004
Posts: 118
|
Ya, I'm not sure they will even consider the rebuttal but it can't hurt. The gym I joined does have other exercise equipment there so they may end up excepting it; I just thought it really interesting that they did not consider this to be a good workout to begin with. If they don't I guess I may end up with something new for home (I wonder if they will except climbing holds for my home wall? ;) ).
Angry, also wondered if the rec center in Lakewood still had their wall? I used to live in Denver and when I was there they had a decent wall. It wasn't real big but provided some good variety now and then.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jun 22, 2009, 5:18 PM
Post #7 of 40
(3166 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
lostcause wrote: Ya, I'm not sure they will even consider the rebuttal but it can't hurt. The gym I joined does have other exercise equipment there so they may end up excepting it; I just thought it really interesting that they did not consider this to be a good workout to begin with. If they don't I guess I may end up with something new for home (I wonder if they will except climbing holds for my home wall? ;) ). Angry, also wondered if the rec center in Lakewood still had their wall? I used to live in Denver and when I was there they had a decent wall. It wasn't real big but provided some good variety now and then.
The Link.
It's pretty cheesy.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jun 22, 2009, 5:22 PM
Post #8 of 40
(3163 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts recognizes my rock gym as a legitimate gym. The important factor for them is the cardio equipment. They pay $150 or something like that for membership costs.
So there you have it, a major insurer considers a rock gym as a regular gym. You now have some precedence. Run with it and you shall fly...
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Jun 22, 2009, 6:09 PM
Post #9 of 40
(3127 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
I recommend putting the request in writing, remember you are explaining how you are achieving the goal, not trying to prove them wrong.
Also, make sure you sell your boss on the idea. She may not have any direct control, but might go to bat for you.
Focus on the "total health" aspect, including weight management. See if you can pull some sales quotes out of national chains (i.e.Lifetime Fitness).
Include a very polite invite to show them how wonderful of a workout you can, and do, get from the rock gym. Include a sample workout schedule (i.e. 4x4s) to show that it isn't just for hanging around.
Feel free to put the draft here for feedback.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jun 22, 2009, 10:39 PM
Post #10 of 40
(3065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
Also, ask the gym itself if they have some sort of statement (or licensure) as a health facility. Including that (official) information or designation may swing the deal.
|
|
|
|
|
desertwanderer81
Jun 22, 2009, 10:45 PM
Post #11 of 40
(3060 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2007
Posts: 2272
|
Offer to take them to the gym for an evening and then ask if they still think it's not a fitness program ;)
|
|
|
|
|
charley
Jun 23, 2009, 12:17 AM
Post #12 of 40
(3032 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 13, 2002
Posts: 6627
|
lostcause wrote: Ya, I'm not sure they will even consider the rebuttal but it can't hurt. The gym I joined does have other exercise equipment there so they may end up excepting it; I just thought it really interesting that they did not consider this to be a good workout to begin with. If they don't I guess I may end up with something new for home (I wonder if they will except climbing holds for my home wall? ;) ). .
Please learn the usage and spelling of the word accept and how to use spell and grammar check before sending your letter. 
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Jun 23, 2009, 12:40 AM
Post #13 of 40
(3029 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts recognizes my rock gym as a legitimate gym. The important factor for them is the cardio equipment. They pay $150 or something like that for membership costs. So there you have it, a major insurer considers a rock gym as a regular gym. You now have some precedence. Run with it and you shall fly...
The only reason they consider it a legitimate gym is the token cardio equipment upstairs. It has nothing at all to do with the other 95% of the space.
Let's be honest here: rock climbing by itself isn't gonna make you live longer or reduce your medical bills. It's a terrible cardio workout, won't do much if anything for losing weight, and causes a ton of injuries and death. Just about the only "healthy" thing about climbing is the approach. If you were a health insurer, would you pay for that?
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jun 23, 2009, 12:59 AM
Post #14 of 40
(3022 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
shoo wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts recognizes my rock gym as a legitimate gym. The important factor for them is the cardio equipment. They pay $150 or something like that for membership costs. So there you have it, a major insurer considers a rock gym as a regular gym. You now have some precedence. Run with it and you shall fly... The only reason they consider it a legitimate gym is the token cardio equipment upstairs. It has nothing at all to do with the other 95% of the space.
I believe I said that in the first sentence.
In reply to: Let's be honest here: rock climbing by itself isn't gonna make you live longer or reduce your medical bills. It's a terrible cardio workout, won't do much if anything for losing weight, and causes a ton of injuries and death. Just about the only "healthy" thing about climbing is the approach. If you were a health insurer, would you pay for that?
Sure, but not the way you put it. Cardio isn't the only thing that a person can see benefits from. Strength training helps, too. Muscle burns fat better than fat burns fat, and climbing is a muscle-building exercise. In fact, it's a pretty good exercise for full body workouts.
I'm not convinced climbing causes more injuries than other sports. I've never had more than a pulled muscle or tendinitis while climbing, but I've broken a bone playing basketball (something a lot of gym have to offer). In fact, I've suffered more injuries running than climbing (the impact ruined my knees).
I'm also not convinced it causes more deaths either. You hear about a lot of football players dying from cardiac arrest while running (not even playing football - but only training for it). Reggie Lewis died on the basketball court. I doubt rock climbing would have accelerated his heart condition the way basketball did.
Besides, if you take away the cardio equipment in any regular gym then BCBS wouldn't pay for that either. So how does that make it different from a climbing gym?
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Jun 23, 2009, 1:05 AM
Post #15 of 40
(3018 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
Who said anything about more than other sports? I simply said more than nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
coolcat83
Jun 23, 2009, 1:06 AM
Post #16 of 40
(3015 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 27, 2007
Posts: 1007
|
shoo wrote: won't do much if anything for losing weight
I lost about 40lbs when I started climbing years ago in the gym
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jun 23, 2009, 1:09 AM
Post #17 of 40
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
coolcat83 wrote: shoo wrote: won't do much if anything for losing weight I lost about 40lbs when I started climbing years ago in the gym
I lost 560 lbs my first year of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jun 23, 2009, 1:09 AM
Post #18 of 40
(3012 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
shoo wrote: Who said anything about more than other sports? I simply said more than nothing.
if that's your inference then it was dumb. sorry, but to say that it causes a lot of injuries without context elsewhere makes the point useless because EVERY activity is likely to cause more injuries than doing nothing, and yet insurance companies pay for a lot of activities. duh.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jun 23, 2009, 1:13 AM
Post #19 of 40
(3005 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
angry wrote: coolcat83 wrote: shoo wrote: won't do much if anything for losing weight I lost about 40lbs when I started climbing years ago in the gym I lost 560 lbs my first year of climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Jun 23, 2009, 1:17 AM
Post #20 of 40
(3004 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: shoo wrote: Who said anything about more than other sports? I simply said more than nothing. if that's your inference then it was dumb. sorry, but to say that it causes a lot of injuries without context elsewhere makes the point useless because EVERY activity is likely to cause more injuries than doing nothing, and yet insurance companies pay for a lot of activities. duh.
The difference is that those other activities (fitness gyms, particularly) involve much more cardio and general fitness, and are far better for you overall. Climbing provides little in terms of general fitness. It does, however, provide motivation to become fit.
You do realize that health insurance is business and not charity, right? If you were an insurance decision maker, do you seriously believe that paying to incentivize rock climbing would be a smart move?
Edited to note: I work 40-50 hours a week designing cost-effectiveness and budgetary impact models for private health insurance firms, large employers, and the government. Still want to debate this?
(This post was edited by shoo on Jun 23, 2009, 1:22 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jun 23, 2009, 1:18 AM
Post #21 of 40
(2999 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
bill413 wrote: angry wrote: coolcat83 wrote: shoo wrote: won't do much if anything for losing weight I lost about 40lbs when I started climbing years ago in the gym I lost 560 lbs my first year of climbing. Friends?
Fat toes and cankles.
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jun 23, 2009, 1:32 AM
Post #22 of 40
(2982 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
shoo wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: shoo wrote: Who said anything about more than other sports? I simply said more than nothing. if that's your inference then it was dumb. sorry, but to say that it causes a lot of injuries without context elsewhere makes the point useless because EVERY activity is likely to cause more injuries than doing nothing, and yet insurance companies pay for a lot of activities. duh. The difference is that those other activities (fitness gyms, particularly) involve much more cardio and general fitness, and are far better for you overall. Climbing provides little in terms of general fitness. It does, however, provide motivation to become fit. You do realize that health insurance is business and not charity, right? If you were an insurance decision maker, do you seriously believe that paying to incentivize rock climbing would be a smart move?
and yet they do pay for it. and yet they still do pay for it.
In reply to: Edited to note: I work 40-50 hours a week designing cost-effectiveness and budgetary impact models for private health insurance firms, large employers, and the government. Still want to debate this?
i work in managed care finance (i.e. - contracting with insurance companies) for children's hospital boston. yes, please humor me.
- regular gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays
- climbing gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays
- climbing gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay
- regular gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay
explain how climbing gyms are different from regular gyms regarding insurance reimbursement again?
ps - last i knew payors paid for all of the injuries that can happen at a climbing gym. last i knew climbing was exercise. last i knew i gained weight from not climbing due to a sprained ankle this winter. last i knew i lost all the weight when i started climbing again. last i knew losing that weight was a good thing for me, healthwise - and yeah, my doctor was happy about that.
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Jun 23, 2009, 1:53 AM
Post #23 of 40
(2966 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
Gmburns2000 wrote: In reply to: Edited to note: I work 40-50 hours a week designing cost-effectiveness and budgetary impact models for private health insurance firms, large employers, and the government. Still want to debate this? i work in managed care finance (i.e. - contracting with insurance companies) for children's hospital boston. yes, please humor me.
Ha! This just got a whole lot more interesting.
Gmburns2000 wrote: - regular gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays - climbing gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays - climbing gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay - regular gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay explain how climbing gyms are different from regular gyms regarding insurance reimbursement again?
How many "regular gyms" do you know of that don't offer some kind of cardio equipment or program? I'm pretty sure that is what defines a "regular gym."
In any case, I'm pretty sure that just proved my point. It's the cardio / general fitness component that matters, not the facility.
Gmburns2000 wrote: ps - last i knew payors paid for all of the injuries that can happen at a climbing gym. last i knew climbing was exercise. last i knew i gained weight from not climbing due to a sprained ankle this winter. last i knew i lost all the weight when i started climbing again. last i knew losing that weight was a good thing for me, healthwise - and yeah, my doctor was happy about that.
I have no disagreement with any of the above. However, there are other possible pathways of causality here that I can think of.
1) Broken ankle reduces ALL activity, not just climbing.
2) Frustration/anxiety/mild depression from not being able to do regular activities causes significant change in lifestyle
3) It's winter. People gain weight in the winter. Shit happens.
4) And of course, the ankle reduces your climbing, which is your mainstay activity, and thus weight gain. I won't count that out.
I don't believe that in general, climbing has significant enough health benefits to warrant coverage from major insurers. I say this without any hard data, and thus it is well-informed opinion.
Gregg, I would be more than happy to discuss this outside of the forum. I'm actually very interested in this, and would be happy to hear your opinion. You know where to get me.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Jun 23, 2009, 11:06 AM
Post #24 of 40
(2925 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
|
shoo wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: In reply to: Edited to note: I work 40-50 hours a week designing cost-effectiveness and budgetary impact models for private health insurance firms, large employers, and the government. Still want to debate this? i work in managed care finance (i.e. - contracting with insurance companies) for children's hospital boston. yes, please humor me. Ha! This just got a whole lot more interesting. Gmburns2000 wrote: - regular gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays - climbing gym w/ cardio equipment = insurance pays - climbing gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay - regular gym w/o cardio equipment = insurance doesn't pay explain how climbing gyms are different from regular gyms regarding insurance reimbursement again? How many "regular gyms" do you know of that don't offer some kind of cardio equipment or program? I'm pretty sure that is what defines a "regular gym." In any case, I'm pretty sure that just proved my point. It's the cardio / general fitness component that matters, not the facility. Gmburns2000 wrote: ps - last i knew payors paid for all of the injuries that can happen at a climbing gym. last i knew climbing was exercise. last i knew i gained weight from not climbing due to a sprained ankle this winter. last i knew i lost all the weight when i started climbing again. last i knew losing that weight was a good thing for me, healthwise - and yeah, my doctor was happy about that. I have no disagreement with any of the above. However, there are other possible pathways of causality here that I can think of. 1) Broken ankle reduces ALL activity, not just climbing. 2) Frustration/anxiety/mild depression from not being able to do regular activities causes significant change in lifestyle 3) It's winter. People gain weight in the winter. Shit happens. 4) And of course, the ankle reduces your climbing, which is your mainstay activity, and thus weight gain. I won't count that out. I don't believe that in general, climbing has significant enough health benefits to warrant coverage from major insurers. I say this without any hard data, and thus it is well-informed opinion. Gregg, I would be more than happy to discuss this outside of the forum. I'm actually very interested in this, and would be happy to hear your opinion. You know where to get me.
Actually this is spot on to the OP question, thanks to both of you for the debate.
And yes, this can devolve into the “is rock climbing a sport” question again. However using my google mojo…
Rock Climbing burns calories (here is a rather high estimation http://www.nutristrategy.com/activitylist4.htm). Rock climbing has a low injury rate to participation despite its reputation ( http://www.wemjournal.org/...9859-004-03-0281.pdf). What it doesn’t have much of is aerobic stress. While you can do your climbing workouts aerobically ( http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/...aerobic-capacity.asp), it is probably fair to say most people don’t.
So, must a gym activity be aerobic to count? I would argue no. The point of the gym is to provide equipment that is otherwise not available at home. The gym doesn’t need to be a massive one stop shop for all kinds of weights and cardio. If it had just weights, it would be good enough. Rock climbing is like a weightlifting gym, the difference is that the weight is your body weight. Instead of moving weights up and down, you are moving your body up and down. The various holds, angles, and positions use your muscles in a broader array than you would get with a traditional free weight workout.
Are their muscles that aren’t over used climbing? Sure, but if a weight gym didn’t have that stupid abductor machine it would still be a weight gym.
So, yes, the rock wall is a gym a “weight lifting” gym and therefore should be covered.
|
|
|
|
|
Alpinisto
Jun 23, 2009, 12:49 PM
Post #25 of 40
(2898 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 11, 2007
Posts: 118
|
gblauer wrote: That said, when I expensed cross country skis, they didn't accept that charge. They only reimburse: bikes, kayaks, home gym equpment, down hill skis etc. There was NO discussion about the list of exclusions, it was simply EXCLUDED. Very frustrating.
Much as I'm enjoying the debate between Greg and shoo, I wanted to go back to this earlier reply. Is this correct that the company's health insurance plan will reimburse downhill skis but not XC skis???
If so, that's fukked up!! 
P.S. Greg, nice blog.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
