Jul 9, 2009, 3:51 AM
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do you climb better on sight or ...
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Anyone ever notice they climb better on sight? I have been onsight climbing almost every route i have climbed in the past month and have noticed I climb much more efficiently, more clear headed and just with better technique all around. I just came off a 4 month sabbatical from climbing(stuck in the middle east ) and find myself on sight climbing the same grades I was red pointing before I left.
agreed. i applaud efforts to do hard onsights and i can understand moments of flow that might arise from choosing a bigger challenge, so, sometimes you might climb better on an onsight. but if you don't consistently climb better (better = more fluidly on harder routes) redpointing then something is wrong (wrong = you are not taking full advantage of the learning benefits of redpointing). if, ethically, you see redpointing as something substandard, then my point is moot.
if your on site climbing is the same as your red point climbing then you arn't pushing yourself hard enough. Go get on something a full number grade above your onsite ability and start working on it. Red pointing is a great way to get stronger
I agree with what JT512, Sidepull, and DaveCummings said, but I definitely understand where you're coming from. You obviously climb differently when onsighting, and it might feel more efficient, free flowing, clear headed ... I get it. I suppose it comes down to your definition of "better".
If you mean "harder", then no. You are onsighting hard right now because your training program is messed up. You needed more rest, or relaxation ... or something.
If you mean "funner", then I can totally buy that. I don't think there's anything more fun than a successful onsight effort.
Obviously practice makes perfect and the potential is there to climb "better" in a redpoint scenerio - that is what the Jays of the world aspire too. But for us old timers on-sighting is for real - the rest is just a game. We try much harder and focus better during the on-sight. I'm not only talking about some committing runout R/X case either. The "for real" appplies to the over bolted grade inflated routes - the ones that the Jays of the world think are significant - you only get one chance - after that it's tainted (who can tell me the origin of that philosophy?). Consequently for me my on-sight level is within on letter of my redpoint (12a vs. 12b - so Jay can pigeon hole me).
The worst scenerio is when you just barely on-sighted something - took everything you had - and then go back to repeat it - failure rate is high.
if your on site climbing is the same as your red point climbing then you arn't pushing yourself hard enough. Go get on something a full number grade above your onsite ability and start working on it. Red pointing is a great way to get stronger
Obviously practice makes perfect and the potential is there to climb "better" in a redpoint scenerio - that is what the Jays of the world aspire too. But for us old timers on-sighting is for real - the rest is just a game. We try much harder and focus better during the on-sight. I'm not only talking about some committing runout R/X case either. The "for real" appplies to the over bolted grade inflated routes - the ones that the Jays of the world think are significant - you only get one chance - after that it's tainted (who can tell me the origin of that philosophy?). Consequently for me my on-sight level is within on letter of my redpoint (12a vs. 12b - so Jay can pigeon hole me).
The worst scenerio is when you just barely on-sighted something - took everything you had - and then go back to repeat it - failure rate is high.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
When I say better I mean; I am more fluid in movement, I am more exact with every move I make, I make sure not to waste energy and I definitely find myself keeping it together mentally a lot more IE thinking threw the problem before acting. Feeling out each hold and foothold and deciding which is going to be the most effective rather then just going for the first thing I think I can pull myself up on. If I come to an area on the climb that looks like it has no way to get threw I am more like to down climb to a good rest area re-asses and re-attack rather then just trying something that probably wont work and either taking or falling.
I have nothing against projecting. I just haven't recently because I only have a year left in Japan and there is 10 sport crags with in 1 hour of my house with probably a total of 500 routes between them and within 2 hours there is several granite mecca's like this http://ogawayama.com/ so i don't want to waste my time on a project when there is so much that still needs to be climbed. In my mind why waste time in one place on one route when if I am on sight climbing 11's I can climb everyday for the rest of my time here and not do the same route over again, Let alone climb all of the classic lines with in my on sight limit. I heard about some people in a climbing vid that went all the way to Yangshuo China and only worked on a 14.d, can you imagine traveling that far just to spend a month climbing one route when there are thousands more around you. Makes me sick just thinking about it.
And yes I have suffered from the embarrassment of going to lead a route I have on sighted and getting my ass handed to me, this is how i know i am a better climber when I am on sight climbing.
In preparation, I definitely lead better onsight, when I don't know about the scary parts! But once I am on the route, on lead, it's pretty much the same whether I have been on the route before or not. Maybe because I'm not so good with remembering details.
Obviously practice makes perfect and the potential is there to climb "better" in a redpoint scenerio - that is what the Jays of the world aspire too. But for us old timers on-sighting is for real - the rest is just a game. We try much harder and focus better during the on-sight. I'm not only talking about some committing runout R/X case either. The "for real" appplies to the over bolted grade inflated routes - the ones that the Jays of the world think are significant - you only get one chance - after that it's tainted (who can tell me the origin of that philosophy?). Consequently for me my on-sight level is within on letter of my redpoint (12a vs. 12b - so Jay can pigeon hole me).
The worst scenerio is when you just barely on-sighted something - took everything you had - and then go back to repeat it - failure rate is high.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Uh, Jay, all of climbing is contrived, non-sensical, and make-believe.
Onsighting or flashing is a game. Just like redpointing. They're both incredibly contrived, and don't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.
I personally love to try for getting routes first go, especially in new areas. This is less to do with me being a great onsighter, and more to do with me being a terrible redpointer. And the motivation to get a line first go really goes a long way in succeeding. I've onsighted routes that I come back to and cannot do; I've also flashed at least a half dozen routes that are only one letter below my maximum redpoint grade.
Obviously practice makes perfect and the potential is there to climb "better" in a redpoint scenerio - that is what the Jays of the world aspire too. But for us old timers on-sighting is for real - the rest is just a game. We try much harder and focus better during the on-sight. I'm not only talking about some committing runout R/X case either. The "for real" appplies to the over bolted grade inflated routes - the ones that the Jays of the world think are significant - you only get one chance - after that it's tainted (who can tell me the origin of that philosophy?). Consequently for me my on-sight level is within on letter of my redpoint (12a vs. 12b - so Jay can pigeon hole me).
The worst scenerio is when you just barely on-sighted something - took everything you had - and then go back to repeat it - failure rate is high.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Uh, Jay, all of climbing is contrived, non-sensical, and make-believe.
I agree that it's contrived, but it's not make-believe. Most of us understand that it is what it is. Save the "uh"s for the—paraphrasing—"Olderics of the world."
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 9, 2009, 11:06 PM)
I can't answer the poll as I don't know what you mean by 'better'
if you mean smooth and efficiant than yeah, i probably do climb 'better' on sight but then i am almost always well within my limits on an on sight attempt. when i'm pushing my on sight limits things can get pretty sketchy pretty fast. When i fail on sights I have a very high success rate ticking those on my second go. And then I'm generally climbing smooth and efficient. Come to think of it... most of the time when i send a hard red point i'm climbing smooth and efficient so um I guess the answer is I climb 'better' on redpoint.
having said that I did yell take on a repeat assent of a climb I had previously on sighted and it is several grades below my best redpoint. sometimes we just have high gravity days.
I can't answer the poll as I don't know what you mean by 'better'
if you mean smooth and efficiant than yeah, i probably do climb 'better' on sight but then i am almost always well within my limits on an on sight attempt. when i'm pushing my on sight limits things can get pretty sketchy pretty fast. When i fail on sights I have a very high success rate ticking those on my second go. And then I'm generally climbing smooth and efficient. Come to think of it... most of the time when i send a hard red point i'm climbing smooth and efficient so um I guess the answer is I climb 'better' on redpoint.
having said that I did yell take on a repeat assent of a climb I had previously on sighted and it is several grades below my best redpoint. sometimes we just have high gravity days.
By better i mean what I stated in my secund post on this thread. More aware, better technique, more thoughtful, more in control of my fear... not so much climbing my hardest grade but climbing better. I have just straight up powered threw moves before while redpointing, when onsighting I don't do this. I find the best way to climb the route.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Or you've simply retreated back into a Peter Pan world where risk has been banished and now that that has become the majority experience you mistake it for reality.
Reality? That would be heading up a trad FA onsight and dealing with whatever you discover along the way.
(This post was edited by healyje on Jul 10, 2009, 6:26 AM)
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Or you've simply retreated back into a Peter Pan world where risk has been banished and now that that has become the majority experience you mistake it for reality.
Reality? That would be heading up a trad FA onsight and dealing with whatever you discover along the way.
From you? That's a compliment. I intend to be the last insane man climbing. You're kind of sanity, along with sitcoms and Big Macs, I can live without.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Or you've simply retreated back into a Peter Pan world where risk has been banished and now that that has become the majority experience you mistake it for reality.
Reality? That would be heading up a trad FA onsight and dealing with whatever you discover along the way.
You're insane.
Jay
No, he's quite right. You have obviously confused sport climbing with real rock climbing again.
Life-or-death, leader-must-not-fall, pre-modern-equipment alpinism. It died almost half a century ago. Since then, climbing has been a sport. Pretending that on-sight climbing is this type of "for real," "you only get one chance" climbing is just playing make-believe. Most of us grew out of playing make-believe in childhood.
Jay
Or you've simply retreated back into a Peter Pan world where risk has been banished and now that that has become the majority experience you mistake it for reality.
Reality? That would be heading up a trad FA onsight and dealing with whatever you discover along the way.
You're insane.
Jay
No, he's quite right. You have obviously confused sport climbing with real rock climbing again.
11 /
46%
) and find myself on sight climbing the same grades I was red pointing before I left. 
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