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heidt410
Jul 10, 2009, 2:50 PM
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Is static rope better than dynamic for toproping? Im debating buying static line or a cheap dynamic rope. Which one will hold up and be safer 3 years from now?
Im leaning towards static for this application, because of cost and durability. Or do you think the dynamic will get the most bang for the buck? Neither would be used for lead climbing.
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SpasticClimber
Jul 10, 2009, 3:13 PM
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You do not, I repeat do not, want to use static rope for TR. Although you do not take the big falls on TR that you do leading, you still want some elasticity to absorb the energy. I use "gym rope" when TR, that is not as dynamic as a full lead rope, but does offer some elasticity unlike a static.
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heidt410
Jul 10, 2009, 3:37 PM
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You're the first person I have ever heard say this? I see many experienced climbers using static on top rope all the time.
top rope routes wont be more than 50ft.
(This post was edited by heidt410 on Jul 10, 2009, 3:45 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jul 10, 2009, 3:50 PM
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SpasticClimber wrote: You do not, I repeat do not, want to use static rope for TR. Although you do not take the big falls on TR that you do leading, you still want some elasticity to absorb the energy. I use "gym rope" when TR, that is not as dynamic as a full lead rope, but does offer some elasticity unlike a static.
how does rope removes the falling energy from itself ?
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norm1057
Jul 10, 2009, 3:50 PM
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Static rope would work and will stretch a bit. But, dynamic would be much better. Besides, you could always change your mind and lead with your dynamic rope.
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Logikal41
Jul 10, 2009, 3:50 PM
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I have never seen anyone using static for a top rope and would not recommend it. I am sure it would be safe enough if you keep a tight belay but if there is any slack in the system and the climber falls it will result in a big shock to their spine which could of course result in injury. It also puts more forces on your anchor, but this should not be as big of a deal as your TR anchor should be bomb proof.
Spend the extra money on saftey and get a dynamic rope.
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heidt410
Jul 10, 2009, 4:18 PM
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The main debate in my mind was the durability factor. 2 yrs from now I dont want to retire a cheap dynamic if a static would hold up longer. Im not worried about slack in the system and anchors are bomber. Would the dynamic break down quicker than the static and the static be safer after 2 yrs, or would the static be the one to drop quicker in strength?
I just hate using my 60m rope on 30-40ft routes.
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heidt410
Jul 10, 2009, 4:21 PM
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SpasticClimber wrote: I use "gym rope" when TR, that is not as dynamic as a full lead rope, but does offer some elasticity unlike a static.
I guess this is the best option.
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angry
Jul 10, 2009, 4:29 PM
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I've seen lots of people TR on static lines. I've done it.
The problem is that you'll have a rope you only use in one place. It's not as versatile so it won't get used as much. That's why most people TR on their lead line, it's what they've got.
Price is not an issue. Dynamic or Static will cost you about the same.
I'd seriously look into static if I was TRing all day, over and over, for months at a time. Currently, I TR about 10 times a month, I probably lead 100 times. I'm just never on TR enough for this to be a major concern.
Also, on longer routes 100+ ft (200 feet of rope out) there is still plenty of rope stretch even with a static. It's not a steel cable.
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vegastradguy
Jul 10, 2009, 4:33 PM
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heidt410 wrote: The main debate in my mind was the durability factor. 2 yrs from now I dont want to retire a cheap dynamic if a static would hold up longer. Im not worried about slack in the system and anchors are bomber. Would the dynamic break down quicker than the static and the static be safer after 2 yrs, or would the static be the one to drop quicker in strength? I just hate using my 60m rope on 30-40ft routes.
my gym uses static- they suck and you have to climb with them essentially tight on you- no slack TR's in that gym (which annoys me).
in terms of durability, the owner swears they last longer, i think its bullshit. you want durable, go buy an 11mm rope- it'll last FOREVER.
i'd recommend doing one of two things.
checking out gearexpress.com to see if they still sell Sterling Shorts- basically cheap-ass ropes that basically the leftovers from a batch, can be any length, but are usually 20-40m long. not sure what diameter will be available, but probably anything from 9.2-11mm.
or, go to your local gym and see if they'll sell you a chunk of their gym line- which may be low-stretch dynamic rope, perfect for TR- and pretty cheap, usually. it comes on a spool, so a 30m chunk should be no big deal for them. gym lines usually run 10.2-10.5mm.
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Carnage
Jul 10, 2009, 5:06 PM
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i second the vote for an 11mm dynamic line.
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trenchdigger
Jul 10, 2009, 5:09 PM
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angry wrote: I've seen lots of people TR on static lines. I've done it. The problem is that you'll have a rope you only use in one place. It's not as versatile so it won't get used as much. That's why most people TR on their lead line, it's what they've got. Price is not an issue. Dynamic or Static will cost you about the same. I'd seriously look into static if I was TRing all day, over and over, for months at a time. Currently, I TR about 10 times a month, I probably lead 100 times. I'm just never on TR enough for this to be a major concern. Also, on longer routes 100+ ft (200 feet of rope out) there is still plenty of rope stretch even with a static. It's not a steel cable.
I love how all the n00bs spew about how yer gunna die if you ___________ " when they know nothing about the subject.
It's perfectly fine to TR on static line. In some cases it's advantageous, and even safer to be on a low-stretch rope.
Other than that, I quote Angry to reiterate what he says...
Also worth adding, rope wear is more a function of how you build your anchors than the type, brand, or diameter of rope. Any rope running over a rough edge will be destroyed in short order. Make sure to properly extend your anchors.
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bill413
Jul 10, 2009, 5:09 PM
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What angry & vegas said.
You certainly can TR on static, lots of people do so. I think that for places that use the rope a lot over short periods of time it probably makes sense. Or a situation where there is so much rope out that the elongation of a dynamic could cause injuries (like a 70m rope on a 30m social belay).
A dynamic will be more versatile (IMO). Over three years of life, the cost difference will be inconsequential.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2009, 5:18 PM
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heidt410 wrote: Is static rope better than dynamic for toproping? Im debating buying static line or a cheap dynamic rope. Which one will hold up and be safer 3 years from now?
Oh, definitely the cheap dynamic rope. The cheaper they are, the longer the hold up.
Jay
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qtm
Jul 10, 2009, 5:50 PM
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heidt410 wrote: Neither would be used for lead climbing.
If there's slack in the TR, a fall is no different than a lead fall and will generate the same forces.
If the climber climbs 6' but the belayer doesn't take in any slack, the rope is now dangling below their feet. It's pretty much the same as being 3' above your gear, and the forces experienced will be the same. Near the top of a 20' TR, it could generate 9.5kN on the climber, that's a significant shock, and 15.8kN on the anchor, which could cause some things to break or pull.
If you're belaying attentively, then sure, there might not be any slack. But if the route goes above a roof and beyond your sight, or you're busy chatting or just daydreaming, it's possible to get slack in the system.
Go with a dynamic, it really doesn't cost that much more, and you can buy half-ropes for those short crags.
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rocknice2
Jul 10, 2009, 7:20 PM
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What Angry, Vegas & Bill said.
I bought a semi static and it's great for TR. Especially if the TR's are long.
The line I have is black 10mm. about 2-3% stretch, bought off a spool.
Can't remember who makes it.
The white 11mm static/caving rope is a bitch to handle, tie knots and belay with.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2009, 7:27 PM
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qtm wrote: heidt410 wrote: Neither would be used for lead climbing. If there's slack in the TR, a fall is no different than a lead fall and will generate the same forces.
False.
In reply to: If the climber climbs 6' but the belayer doesn't take in any slack, the rope is now dangling below their feet. It's pretty much the same as being 3' above your gear, and the forces experienced will be the same. Near the top of a 20' TR, it could generate 9.5kN on the climber, that's a significant shock, and 15.8kN on the anchor, which could cause some things to break or pull.
False. At the top of a 20-ft TR with 6 feet of slack in the rope, the fall factor would be 6/26 = 0.23. Under EN 1891, the impact force of a semi-static climbing rope cannot exceed 6 kN in a factor-0.3 drop of an 80-kg mass. Thus the force on the climber in your scenario will not be 9.5 kN; it will be less than 6 kN. The force should be on the order of a lead fall on the first bolt of sport climb.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 10, 2009, 7:29 PM)
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SpasticClimber
Jul 10, 2009, 7:34 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: SpasticClimber wrote: You do not, I repeat do not, want to use static rope for TR. Although you do not take the big falls on TR that you do leading, you still want some elasticity to absorb the energy. I use "gym rope" when TR, that is not as dynamic as a full lead rope, but does offer some elasticity unlike a static. how does rope removes the falling energy from itself ?
I guess absorb wasn't the best choice of words. It is more accurate to say that the energy is dissipated more safely because of the elasticity of the rope. A static means you have to really have your belaying locked in. My first post was too harsh, but I always prefer the extra element of safety that a dynamic provides.
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binrat
Jul 10, 2009, 7:48 PM
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Most people think that "static" rope has no stretch at all. The Cordage Institute standard 1801-98, defines static ropes as having less than 6% elongation at 10% of minimum breaking strength (MBS), a low stretch rope as having between 6 and 10% elongation at 10% MBS and a dynamic rope having greater than 10% elongation at 10% MBS.
binrat
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qtm
Jul 10, 2009, 7:51 PM
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jt512 wrote: qtm wrote: heidt410 wrote: Neither would be used for lead climbing. If there's slack in the TR, a fall is no different than a lead fall and will generate the same forces. False. In reply to: If the climber climbs 6' but the belayer doesn't take in any slack, the rope is now dangling below their feet. It's pretty much the same as being 3' above your gear, and the forces experienced will be the same. Near the top of a 20' TR, it could generate 9.5kN on the climber, that's a significant shock, and 15.8kN on the anchor, which could cause some things to break or pull. False. At the top of a 20-ft TR with 6 feet of slack in the rope, the fall factor would be 6/26 = 0.23. Under EN 1891, the impact force of a semi-static climbing rope cannot exceed 6 kN in a factor-0.3 drop of an 80-kg mass. Thus the force on the climber in your scenario will not be 9.5 kN; it will be less than 6 kN. The force should be on the order of a lead fall on the first bolt of sport climb. Jay
Eh, the only thing wrong is that I used a higher impact force for the static rope. If the fall is in the order of a lead fall on a dynamic rope, then the first section is true.
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justinboening
Jul 10, 2009, 8:32 PM
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I ran a gym for a number of years AND I worked as a climbing instructor for a number of youth programs. I've kept the rope logs. I've done the work.
A static rope is going to be significantly more durable than a dynamic of a given sheath mass. Since the static doesn't stretch as much, it rubs less over the rock when it's weighted. It's that simple.
If you do a lot of TR climbing on this crag, OP, get a custom static cord cut. It just makes sense.
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vegastradguy
Jul 10, 2009, 8:34 PM
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justinboening wrote: I ran a gym for a number of years AND I worked as a climbing instructor for a number of youth programs. I've kept the rope logs. I've done the work. A static rope is going to be significantly more durable than a dynamic of a given sheath mass. Since the static doesn't stretch as much, it rubs less over the rock when it's weighted. It's that simple. If you do a lot of TR climbing on this crag, OP, get a custom static cord cut. It just makes sense.
i stand corrected.
still dont care for the idea of a no-stretch rope out at the crag, even on TR, though....
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bill413
Jul 10, 2009, 9:53 PM
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justinboening wrote: I ran a gym for a number of years AND I worked as a climbing instructor for a number of youth programs. I've kept the rope logs. I've done the work. A static rope is going to be significantly more durable than a dynamic of a given sheath mass. Since the static doesn't stretch as much, it rubs less over the rock when it's weighted. It's that simple. If you do a lot of TR climbing on this crag, OP, get a custom static cord cut. It just makes sense.
I'm actually not arguing that a static rope is more durable than a dynamic. The reason that you postulate certainly seems a reasonable explanation for why. However, I'm questioning if it really matters for an individual climber as opposed to a program's use of the rope.
I have had a rope get core shot in it's first outing - so I can say it's not a good idea to use a dynamic rope for an anchor. Static rope or webbing is appropriate for that. But, I think it's easier to belay with a dynamic, and that's how I'd go.
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jt512
Jul 10, 2009, 10:19 PM
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qtm wrote: jt512 wrote: qtm wrote: heidt410 wrote: Neither would be used for lead climbing. If there's slack in the TR, a fall is no different than a lead fall and will generate the same forces. False. In reply to: If the climber climbs 6' but the belayer doesn't take in any slack, the rope is now dangling below their feet. It's pretty much the same as being 3' above your gear, and the forces experienced will be the same. Near the top of a 20' TR, it could generate 9.5kN on the climber, that's a significant shock, and 15.8kN on the anchor, which could cause some things to break or pull. False. At the top of a 20-ft TR with 6 feet of slack in the rope, the fall factor would be 6/26 = 0.23. Under EN 1891, the impact force of a semi-static climbing rope cannot exceed 6 kN in a factor-0.3 drop of an 80-kg mass. Thus the force on the climber in your scenario will not be 9.5 kN; it will be less than 6 kN. The force should be on the order of a lead fall on the first bolt of sport climb. Jay Eh, the only thing wrong is that I used a higher impact force for the static rope.
The "only" thing wrong? It invalidates your conclusion!
Jay
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qtm
Jul 10, 2009, 10:35 PM
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That a fall on TR with slack is the same as a lead fall? That's true.
As for the forces, that still holds true for static ropes that aren't climbing ropes and subject to certifications. Not that the OP was considering using rope from HoDe, but it shows why its a good reason not to climb on non-climbing ropes.
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