sounds like the safest way to do it is to just lead it.

in terms of the fall forces and such, im pretty sure a fall factor 2 fall on static ropes (which are more dynamic than webbing and such) generate around 17kN of force. This comes from the petzl fall simulator that they used to have up on their site (i cant find it anymore) so i wouldnt be surprised if you broke some of that gear from such a fall.

if you really wanted to get into it, look into some of the gear they use for via ferras. they are made to deal with high FF falls.

Impact forces in shorter falls with a human as the load are significantly reduced by the softness and flexibilty of your body and limbs. The "whiplash" you get absorbs a good amount of the energy involved. As the fall gets longer (assuming the same fall factor) and amount of energy increases, your body's ability to dissipate some of that energy does not so the impact force will increase.

The Petzl fall calculator fails to consider this variable, assuming a solid, inflexible mass and therefore will be less accurate for shorter falls with a human body as the falling body. The fact remains that even though a short, high FF fall on static line/webbing may not generate loads large enough to break gear, it's going to hurt like a MOFO!

The fact remains that even though a short, high FF fall on static line/webbing may not generate loads large enough to break gear, it's going to hurt like a MOFO!

was i not clear that when i said gear, i mean junk in your pants?

Personally in that situation (having only your description to go by) I would have my partner put me on belay at the top (standing well back from the edge) and then work my way out there with my PAS to anchor in once I was at the chains. Better if there was something to get behind though. Again, not having seen the area, that would be my suggestion. EDIT: If there was a place to get gear in, yeah, making an anchor would be great.

This site will caculate the fall factor for you and everything.

http://www.myoan.net/climbart/climbforcecal.html

This calculator works just like the Petzl one, assuming the mass is a solid, inflexible object. As I mentioned earlier, this assumption results in a significant error with shorter falls when the malleable human body is exchanged for the solid mass.

Oh, and aside from the fact that it's totally wrong!

GO

yea, apparently a 20 foot fall on 100 feet of rope is a FF1.2

Question: How much force will this generate and will this equipment handle it safely? Also is this the way the equipment was designed to be used?

}--The equipment (PAS) made from 2 blue water titan loop chains (18Kn) and 2 Petzl Attache HMS Screwgate Carabiner (23Kn) and Metolius super safe harness.--{

I weigh 175 pounds if I were laying on a ledge and I fell 3 feet and fully weighted and stopped on the above loop chains and carabiners clipped onto Metolius rap-hangers would the system hold? Is there a risk of the carabiners shattering?


Here is what's making me ask this:

The other day I was watching some top-ropers (two teenage girls) hike up to the canyon rim to rig their rope from the top instead of lead climbing up and rigging the top-rope that way.

I saw the dumbest thing I've ever seen. One of them slid out over the edge to rig the sling/anchor while the other held her feet (no I'm not kidding). I thought to myself that they are asking for death. I reasoned that if they had a PAS or two they could have done it more safely but then I caught myself. How?

If they used a PAS or two they are still rolling the dice. The anchors were down way over the edge. If they used a PAS (a static system) while down-climbing from the ledge and they slip they are going to static-load the system and maybe shatter the carabiner and take a fall. So I ruled the PAS option out. (Am I right here?)

After climbing I hiked up to see what they had to work with. There was nothing. They couldn't have tied into anything to rap down. It was flat. They could have rigged an anchor with 3 cams or stoppers in a low wall about 20 feet back from the edge but that assumes they had cams/stoppers and the rest of the gear to do that and rap off of. (Is this a safe approach if you don't lead-climb it? You could set 3 stoppers and rig a bomber anchor I think but is that stupid to do?)

It stumped me and I was hoping to find a guide that could explain a safe way to do it. If you try to go over the edge and down climb down below the bolts to rig the rope you run the risk of falling and shattering your biners because a PAS isn't dynamic. There is no give in the system at all. At best all I can come up with is putting a screamer/load limiter on at the end of the PAS to try and reduce the fall factor. (But honestly I decided you either lead-climb it or walk away right?)

Do you have suggestions for this situation? How would you do this safely aside from climbing lead from the bottom up which admittedly is much safer than trying to climb down the edge or have someone hold your ankles.

Oh, and aside from the fact that it's totally wrong!

GO

I saw the dumbest thing I've ever seen. One of them slid out over the edge to rig the sling/anchor while the other held her feet (no I'm not kidding).

If you're reasonably sure you're not going to fall, wouldn't using a screamer in conjunction with your PAS be the way to go? I've never been in this situation so this is obviously hypothetical. But it seems like throwing a screamer into the mix takes all the risk out of the all-static scenario.

Most sport routes are not designed to be safely set up on TR from the top. The anchors are on the face of the climb because they are expected to be clipped on lead. If you want to safely set up a TR, you have to lead the route to do it.

Jay

Why not just rap down to the anchors are set too far from safe reach?

Why not just lead the route?

Jay

Either because you can't or don't want to. There's plenty of good reasons for not leading a route.

GO

Why not just lead the route?

Jay