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shockabuku
Aug 27, 2009, 4:02 AM
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How does that apply herer? I'd think the lesson is to make sure you build your anchor in solid rock.
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majid_sabet
Aug 27, 2009, 4:25 AM
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shockabuku wrote: How does that apply herer? I'd think the lesson is to make sure you build your anchor in solid rock.
it does apply here and applies everywhere cause ANCHOR means; In rock climbing, an anchor can be any way of attaching the climber, the rope, or a load to rock, ice, steep dirt, or a building by either permanent or temporary means. The goal of an anchor depends on the type of climbing under consideration but usually consists of stopping a fall, or holding a static load.
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shockabuku
Aug 27, 2009, 4:36 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: shockabuku wrote: How does that apply herer? I'd think the lesson is to make sure you build your anchor in solid rock. it does apply here and applies everywhere cause ANCHOR means; In rock climbing, an anchor can be any way of attaching the climber, the rope, or a load to rock, ice, steep dirt, or a building by either permanent or temporary means. The goal of an anchor depends on the type of climbing under consideration but usually consists of stopping a fall, or holding a static load.
But why mention FF2 X 2? The rock the anchor was in fell apart, with at best a toprope load as I read the thing.
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majid_sabet
Aug 27, 2009, 5:19 AM
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shockabuku wrote: majid_sabet wrote: shockabuku wrote: How does that apply herer? I'd think the lesson is to make sure you build your anchor in solid rock. it does apply here and applies everywhere cause ANCHOR means; In rock climbing, an anchor can be any way of attaching the climber, the rope, or a load to rock, ice, steep dirt, or a building by either permanent or temporary means. The goal of an anchor depends on the type of climbing under consideration but usually consists of stopping a fall, or holding a static load. But why mention FF2 X 2? The rock the anchor was in fell apart, with at best a toprope load as I read the thing.
i think it said both climber were stopped by a protection which i assume , it was a protection(s) between belayer and the leader after anchor failed which tell me, both climber were on some sort of wall above ground.
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patto
Aug 27, 2009, 5:55 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: i think it said both climber were stopped by a protection which i assume , it was a protection(s) between belayer and the leader after anchor failed which tell me, both climber were on some sort of wall above ground.
This event shows that a single well placed protection can hold a factor 1 fall.
It also shows that rock can fail sometimes resulting in anchor failure.
It is not a great example why building anchors for factor 2 falls is important.
In fact for all we know the anchor might have been a fantastic anchor for factor 2 falls. Depending on the circumstance it may have been impossible to tell of cliff face weakness.
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JAB
Aug 27, 2009, 1:49 PM
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As usual, you can't make anything other than very general conclusions based on the news item, since all detail is lacking.
Maybe the anchor was piss-poor from the start, and failed immediately when loaded? Maybe it was built with nuts that were good for downwards loading, but the belayer somehow managed to lift them out of the rock? Maybe the rock crumbled? Maybe the news piece is wrong, and in fact it was just a normal fall and the acnhor remained in place just fine?
No way to tell unless more details are revealed.
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bigtoeski
Aug 28, 2009, 10:04 PM
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I find it interesting that Huff was the one who got himself down without help from the guides and he was the one that got put into a litter and got taken away in a helicopter. What happened to the guy the exum guides helped? If huff needed medical attention why was he the one who got himself down without any help?
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saxfiend
Aug 30, 2009, 2:41 PM
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From reading the news article, this is what it sounds like to me:
1. Huff led the pitch, built his anchor and started bringing Lawrence up. Huff would have anchored himself to one or more pieces of the anchor, probably with the rope from his tie-in. I'm betting he was belaying Lawrence directly off the anchor with an ATC Guide or similar autolock device; that would explain why his fall wasn't further than it was.
2. Lawrence started following the pitch, cleaning pro as he came in the usual way. He was 30-40 ft. up the pitch when the anchor blew.
3. Huff somehow loaded the anchor (leaned back to get a better view of his second?), causing it to blow out of the unstable rock. Having kept Lawrence on a normal belay up to this point, he would have had a 30-40-ft pile of rope between his tie-in and the belay device. Add that to the distance between the anchor and the last piece of pro Huff placed and you get the distance of his fall.
4. Assuming he was on the rock and climbing at the time of the fall (as opposed to hanging on the rope), Lawrence would then have become a de facto belayer to the falling Huff. Lawrence caught Huff's fall on his tie-in with lots of rope in the system.
That's my best hypothesis based on the article. So this was basically like a major lead fall on pro; there's no fall factor 2 scenario involved.
JL
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Bats
Aug 30, 2009, 3:32 PM
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I want to know the area that the anchors failed. Was it just poor rock? Was there better choice for placement? Was it a pile of rocks that the gear was placed in? What was these climbers experiences?Maybe wait for more details...
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dan2see
Aug 30, 2009, 5:33 PM
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Majid, I don't think you understand the story in the new article.
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rgold
Aug 30, 2009, 6:55 PM
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From SuperTopo, full text at
http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=943932#msg943932
"I was following the pitch and my partner was belaying me from above. If you are familiar with the 2nd pitch, I was cleaning and just pulled through the roof section. As I was pulling out a piece of gear I slipped and fell to just below the roof. As I fell, less than 5 ft with rope stretch, I tweaked my wrist that would have prevented me from climbing much longer that day. As we were figuring out whether it would be easier for me to ascend the rope or have him lower me the anchor blew out (with only bodyweight loaded) and I was dropped from the roof to 10ft above the 1st belay ledge - nearly 40ft or so. As the anchor pulled and we both fell all of the rocks, "toaster to microwave-sized" somehow missed me. While there were other pieces still involved, a single .5 BD Camalot held us both. We fell on a 9.4 Petzl rope. The anchor was a slung boulder and a tricam placement, however with my partners lack of memory of the fall it's hard to tell exactly what happened."
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majid_sabet
Aug 30, 2009, 7:04 PM
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12 years ago, two climbers died in the exact same type of accident when belayer fell( lost anchor) while follower was coming up on the pitch. they ripped every piece to the ground.
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saxfiend
Aug 30, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Wow, that sure puts things in a whole new light. Those guys were really lucky. Thanks for the update.
JL
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notapplicable
Aug 30, 2009, 10:58 PM
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rgold wrote: From SuperTopo, full text at http://www.supertopo.com/...msg=943932#msg943932 "I was following the pitch and my partner was belaying me from above. If you are familiar with the 2nd pitch, I was cleaning and just pulled through the roof section. As I was pulling out a piece of gear I slipped and fell to just below the roof. As I fell, less than 5 ft with rope stretch, I tweaked my wrist that would have prevented me from climbing much longer that day. As we were figuring out whether it would be easier for me to ascend the rope or have him lower me the anchor blew out (with only bodyweight loaded) and I was dropped from the roof to 10ft above the 1st belay ledge - nearly 40ft or so. As the anchor pulled and we both fell all of the rocks, "toaster to microwave-sized" somehow missed me. While there were other pieces still involved, a single .5 BD Camalot held us both. We fell on a 9.4 Petzl rope. The anchor was a slung boulder and a tricam placement, however with my partners lack of memory of the fall it's hard to tell exactly what happened."
Damn, thats a pants shitter if I've ever heard one!!
Glad everyone made it out in one piece.
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ClimbClimb
Aug 31, 2009, 12:55 AM
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rgold wrote: "the anchor blew out (with only bodyweight loaded) and I was dropped from the roof to 10ft above the 1st belay ledge - nearly 40ft or so. As the anchor pulled and we both fell all of the rocks, "toaster to microwave-sized" somehow missed me. "
Sounds like Magid is rigth -- if the anchor had been built to hold FF2 falls, this wouldn't have happened. Now, you could say that if anchor was built to hold *more than body weight*, that it probably wouldn't have happened either, but clearly "build strong anchors" is a valid reminder for this accident/incident.
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boymeetsrock
Sep 1, 2009, 7:16 PM
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This story is both a pantz shitzer and a small confirmation that simul-climbing isn't total lunacy.
Glad these two are safe.
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dynosore
Sep 1, 2009, 7:59 PM
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I can imagine hanging there from only a .5 camalot was exciting! Depending on how big the slung boulder was, that anchor would rate anywhere from solid to suicidal in my mind.
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tetons
Sep 6, 2009, 11:03 PM
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There's a follow-up article in the N&G that gives some further details on the anchor. (I'm sorry, but I don't have a link -- try Jackson News and Guide and see what you find). It was a block slung with runner, with a piece in the crack between block and main wall. The block collapsed or otherwise came off. Thus, the second piece became history, too.
One of the climbers credited his helmet with saving his life.
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timstich
Sep 7, 2009, 3:07 PM
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"Sounds like we need one of those Majid-style diagrams like they have on RC.com."
Calling Majid...
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clc
Sep 18, 2009, 4:10 PM
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a couple ideas.
--try to build you anchors in a few different cracks so if one pieces blows the rock the other piece will not be affected.
---also the belayer above should test the anchor before the 2nd climber starts up. So if the belay anchor fails atleast the 2nd down below will still be safely attached to his anchor and will not fall any distance( in this case a 40ft fall would be avoided)
even a simple bonce test would have blown this guys shitty anchor. Then the 2nd below could start the rescue if needed.
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billl7
Sep 18, 2009, 5:07 PM
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clc wrote: a couple ideas. --try to build you anchors in a few different cracks so if one pieces blows the rock the other piece will not be affected.
Agreed - but not always possible.
clc wrote: ---also the belayer above should test the anchor before the 2nd climber starts up. So if the belay anchor fails atleast the 2nd down below will still be safely attached to his anchor and will not fall any distance( in this case a 40ft fall would be avoided) even a simple bonce test would have blown this guys shitty anchor. Then the 2nd below could start the rescue if needed.
I would be uncomfortable doing multi-pitch with someone who felt they needed to bounce test their anchors. Practice building anchors under a watchful eye, do protected falls on gear, study each type of piece and know how it works ... whatever it takes to be comfortable relying on a visual for the real deal.
This kind of bounce test is similar to the "bump test" that is suggested before rappeling. It is not a bad idea but simply does not replace a 100% visual of the rap anchor plus confidence backed up by knowledge/experience in what that visual is telling you.
Bill
Edit: Some here will recall the rap accident out by Flagstaff a number of years back (Shelly W?). One theory was that she did a bump test under which a knot caught in a loop of webbing held up but later failed under full body weight. Multi-pitch anchors could in theory be bump tested enough to simulate a short fall by a follower but hardly enough to simulate an early leader fall during the next pitch.
(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 18, 2009, 6:22 PM)
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ukkonen
Sep 18, 2009, 6:25 PM
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The thing I still don't quite understand is why Majid takes such a keen interest in these situations but then garbles the lessons learned so much that I wonder if he will ever learn anything useful beyond reinforcing basic climbing doctrine.
Are you learning something here MS? Or do you "just need to watch things die?"
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clc
Sep 18, 2009, 10:25 PM
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The climbers said they were experienced, but they must have really screwed up to set up a "belay anchor" that didn't even hold body weight. He must of know it was shitty.
I've never bonce tested my belay
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majid_sabet
Sep 18, 2009, 10:40 PM
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ukkonen wrote: The thing I still don't quite understand is why Majid takes such a keen interest in these situations but then garbles the lessons learned so much that I wonder if he will ever learn anything useful beyond reinforcing basic climbing doctrine. Are you learning something here MS? Or do you "just need to watch things die?"
I carefully read ,analyze and take notes from each incident and document them in my own little note book then transfer the info in to power point presentations where I present them to other climbers during given seminars round the world.
I do not become involved ( by choice) on the topics to reduce the flame cause, I got enough people who hate me to death on this site for posting reports and there is no need to add more people to list of wabitt haters.
Does that help ?
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