|
mikebee
Oct 17, 2009, 12:43 PM
Post #26 of 50
(8374 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 190
|
In reply to: You can't have water proof and breatheable. You stressed water proof many times called it a must and put it in the title. Breatheable was a 'bonus'.
Does this mean that you don't believe Gore-Tex is waterproof? It's not designed to be submerged, but the fabric doesn't leak even in the worst weather I've been in. How much more "waterproof" do you need?
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 17, 2009, 1:33 PM
Post #27 of 50
(8373 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
mikebee wrote: In reply to: You can't have water proof and breatheable. You stressed water proof many times called it a must and put it in the title. Breatheable was a 'bonus'. Does this mean that you don't believe Gore-Tex is waterproof? It's not designed to be submerged, but the fabric doesn't leak even in the worst weather I've been in. How much more "waterproof" do you need?
|
|
|
|
|
ncrockclimber
Oct 17, 2009, 2:05 PM
Post #28 of 50
(8371 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 6, 2006
Posts: 286
|
I just picked up the REI Taku and have been very impressed. I cannot speak to the long term durability, but it looks to be built well enough to last a while. As far as waterproof and breathable, I can tell you that it is awesome. Also, they are on sale for $150. I have had some Patagonia products in the past. Although expensive, they last forever and are great products.
I do not agree with the comments about Helly Hansen. I had a HH ski jacket years ago and was not impressed at all. YMMV, but I would not buy one.
|
|
|
|
|
btg
Oct 17, 2009, 2:58 PM
Post #29 of 50
(8365 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 16, 2008
Posts: 31
|
Anything from Rab will kick ass and then keep on breathing. I've had their Super Dru for almost three years and it is fantastic in breathability and durability, but it is on the light side for a burly mountain jacket ~14oz. And as with all uber breathable jkcts you need to wash them and reapply DWR every so often.
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Oct 17, 2009, 5:11 PM
Post #30 of 50
(8353 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
mikebee wrote: In reply to: You can't have water proof and breatheable. You stressed water proof many times called it a must and put it in the title. Breatheable was a 'bonus'. Does this mean that you don't believe Gore-Tex is waterproof? It's not designed to be submerged, but the fabric doesn't leak even in the worst weather I've been in. How much more "waterproof" do you need?
They try to compensate with all kinds of vents that are annoying and let blowing snow in. I much prefer soft shell for 90% of conditions and I live in the PNW.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Oct 17, 2009, 7:23 PM
Post #31 of 50
(8346 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
sungam wrote: dynosore wrote: Helly Hansen. I've had over a dozen breathable rain shells and they make the best, period. I do an annual hiking, climbing, and halibut fishing pilgrimage to Alaska every summer, so I put my gear to the test. Better than Arcteryx, Patagonia, etc. They nail all the small details, and their fabric is as breathable as e-vent. Helly Hanson = fashion, in my opinion. But what companies don't these days?
Huh, not around here. No one's heard of it. They tend to make functional jackets vs. eye catching designs. Regardless, they've kept me dry where I know others would have failed.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Oct 17, 2009, 7:26 PM
Post #32 of 50
(8344 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
unrest wrote: The passion killer for me: Google: Helly Hansen Rain Jacket Result: REI Page: "Men's Waterproof Jackets and Pants" -> "Non-Breathable Rainware" I'm normally a person that freezes their butt off. Cold all the farking time. Until I lift a finger. Once I start doing something sweat just pours. Even if it's 30 out, even if it's 0 out. I have to have something that let's sweat out. Major must! Otherwise I was ready to click "Add to Cart" and pocket $140 in left-over cash.
They make plenty of breathable gear, if you can find some you won't be sorry. I probably sound like a sales rep, but I have a few pieces of gear I am an absolute believer in, and HH jackets are one of them. I have more camping & hiking gear than an REI store, so I speak from experience.
|
|
|
|
|
dynosore
Oct 17, 2009, 7:28 PM
Post #33 of 50
(8342 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1768
|
ncrockclimber wrote: I just picked up the REI Taku and have been very impressed. I cannot speak to the long term durability, but it looks to be built well enough to last a while. As far as waterproof and breathable, I can tell you that it is awesome. Also, they are on sale for $150. I have had some Patagonia products in the past. Although expensive, they last forever and are great products. I do not agree with the comments about Helly Hansen. I had a HH ski jacket years ago and was not impressed at all. YMMV, but I would not buy one.
I don't know about their ski jackets, but their rain gear is top notch. The OP is looking for a waterproof shell.
|
|
|
|
|
unrest
Oct 25, 2009, 2:23 AM
Post #34 of 50
(8281 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2009
Posts: 196
|
So I went with the REI Shuksan ($299) and I have to say it's pretty freaking unreal. The eVent fabric is pretty danged awesome. The day started wet as you can get except for being submerged it was also cold and windy. So I layered my merino wool base layer, primaloft for warmth, and still needed my Schoeller Cloudveil Rayzar as it was plain cold. On top of that I had the Shuksan and it was brilliant. Then we started moving and moving fast. I stashed the Primaloft and the Cloudveil and it was time to see just how good the eVent was. With only it and the merino wool I was intrigued to see how things would progress. It was freaky. I sweat heavy, I mean I'll soak #edit# cotten cotton #edit# through completely in an hour of steady exertion and this was steady. It was great. Then the rain passed and the wind kicked up along with the sun. I dropped the wool and just had the Shuksan on. It was brilliant.
I'm very impressed. I started out 2 weeks ago with the Mountain Hardware piece I asked about and it was really disappointing. It just isn't on par at all with eVent. The eVent is super light and will pack to the size of a softball, it layers brilliantly and the wind/rain proof with welded seems is freaky.
+1 for eVent. Get it! Love it! It might just save your life.
(This post was edited by unrest on Oct 25, 2009, 2:25 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
Wunderkind
Oct 25, 2009, 3:07 PM
Post #35 of 50
(8260 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2008
Posts: 120
|
I agree, and I think you should check out the eVent shell coming out this winter from Stoic. Major upgrade over last year's model, which was already a pretty well thought out piece:
http://stoicgear.com/
it has all your required features and will be had for a bit less coin than the Rab.
|
|
|
|
|
newriverE
Oct 25, 2009, 9:30 PM
Post #36 of 50
(8237 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 6, 2009
Posts: 36
|
If it ever starts to disapoint look at the Mountain hardwear Carnic jacket. It is their "terra shell" coat, which is in my opinion unbeatable. It is as waterproof as the Goretex pro shell and more breathable (MVTR of 40,000). It's essentially a perfect jacket, but a little more expensive at $350.
I'm glad you like your jacket, but if it fails you, you can always return it...
|
|
|
|
|
unrest
Oct 26, 2009, 1:02 AM
Post #37 of 50
(8219 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2009
Posts: 196
|
newriverE wrote: but if it fails you, you can always return it...
Yup. I love r policies like REI and Sierra Trading Post.
|
|
|
|
|
crazyscuba
Oct 27, 2009, 4:55 PM
Post #38 of 50
(8177 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2003
Posts: 173
|
So the deal with eVent is that they take an extra protection layer away from the membrane to give it added breathability. The upside is obvious in that you get added breathability.
The downside, which no one really knows about, is that the layer they take out protects the material from skin oils. It's something that Gore and the rest of the manufacturers refuse to take out.
With eVent you get great initial breathability but that drops significantly with more use, while the rest of the waterproof materials keep the same breathability throughout their lifespan.
I personally own and use the Mountain Hardwear Terra Shell, now the Carnic Jacket, and it's close to perfect. Light at 10 ounces, the most breathable jacket that hardwear makes and fairly durable. As a plus it's light enough to be used in humid summer conditions but also still great as an alpine shell in the winter.
Just my thoughts.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Oct 27, 2009, 5:14 PM
Post #39 of 50
(8168 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
according to eVent materials i have read about, including a recent article in Chemical and Engineering News, the reason eVent can get rid of the inner protective layer is that their PTFE membrane oleophobic while most PTFE are oleophillic.
so hence lighter, more breathable, time in the field will tell which is better but my bets are on eVent right now
|
|
|
|
|
crazyscuba
Oct 27, 2009, 5:28 PM
Post #40 of 50
(8161 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2003
Posts: 173
|
I'm gonna place my bets on Hardwear, Arc'Teryx, Patagonia, Marmot and TNF since all of them have done their own long term tests and wanted to stick to what they've been doing.
Note that everyone using eVent currently is fairly small and is looking for a way to break into an over saturated market.
(This post was edited by crazyscuba on Oct 27, 2009, 5:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 27, 2009, 5:46 PM
Post #41 of 50
(8151 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
rock_fencer wrote: according to eVent materials i have read about, including a recent article in Chemical and Engineering News, the reason eVent can get rid of the inner protective layer is that their PTFE membrane oleophobic while most PTFE are oleophillic. so hence lighter, more breathable, time in the field will tell which is better but my bets are on eVent right now
|
|
|
|
|
hafilax
Oct 27, 2009, 6:04 PM
Post #42 of 50
(8146 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2007
Posts: 3025
|
sungam wrote: rock_fencer wrote: according to eVent materials i have read about, including a recent article in Chemical and Engineering News, the reason eVent can get rid of the inner protective layer is that their PTFE membrane oleophobic while most PTFE are oleophillic. so hence lighter, more breathable, time in the field will tell which is better but my bets are on eVent right now Time in the field has shown - you'll want to wash your event fabric in nikwax tech wash then reproof if with nixwax every once in a while to keep the breathability up.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 27, 2009, 6:06 PM
Post #43 of 50
(8143 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
hafilax wrote: sungam wrote: rock_fencer wrote: according to eVent materials i have read about, including a recent article in Chemical and Engineering News, the reason eVent can get rid of the inner protective layer is that their PTFE membrane oleophobic while most PTFE are oleophillic. so hence lighter, more breathable, time in the field will tell which is better but my bets are on eVent right now Time in the field has shown - you'll want to wash your event fabric in nikwax tech wash then reproof if with nixwax every once in a while to keep the breathability up. Nikwax sucks. Revivex or Grainger's.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Oct 27, 2009, 6:23 PM
Post #44 of 50
(8133 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
i wouldnt bet on gear manufacturers coming around so quickly as they probably have excess material on hand and contracts to fullfill. Ive never used eVent but my Gore-Tex XCR jacket sucks when it comes to keeping me dry. However, Integral Designs makes a very highly reviewed eVent bivy sack for example. I hear Gore Pro is on par with eVent as well.
Chemically speaking eVent is superior in its production process. Not revolutionary and hardly 100% effective. Oils and fats will always be attracted to long hydrocarbon based polymer chains. Flourine can only do so much to reduce this effect.
|
|
|
|
|
sspssp
Oct 27, 2009, 6:45 PM
Post #45 of 50
(8124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 2, 2003
Posts: 1731
|
crazyscuba wrote: I'm gonna place my bets on Hardwear, Arc'Teryx, Patagonia, Marmot and TNF since all of them have done their own long term tests and wanted to stick to what they've been doing. Note that everyone using eVent currently is fairly small and is looking for a way to break into an over saturated market.
So somebody was telling me that Gortex essentailly won't sell to product lines that carry event. So the big producers (who feel they have to have Gortex for marketing reasons) don't carry event and only the little guys carry event (but not Gortex).
Any truth to this or just a case of propaganda/urban myth?
(This post was edited by sspssp on Oct 27, 2009, 6:45 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
unrest
Oct 27, 2009, 7:03 PM
Post #46 of 50
(8117 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 24, 2009
Posts: 196
|
sspssp wrote: So somebody was telling me that Gortex essentailly won't sell to product lines that carry event. So the big producers (who feel they have to have Gortex for marketing reasons) don't carry event and only the little guys carry event (but not Gortex). Any truth to this or just a case of propaganda/urban myth?
That is straight dope there. I have a great relationship with REI and my local gear shop and both have confirmed. The problem for Gore is they need REI but REI does not need them. REI will and does carry both eVent and Gore. The small shop cannot carry eVent because of the Gore threat.
To me it says that Gore is afraid of something. What I have no clue.
As to fats and oils... My eVent shell would bug the shit out of me on skin. Makes no sense at all. I'd pull my soft-shell out and stash the eVent if I needed a single layer barrier. If it was incredibly wet and pouring I'd wear a merrino base layer (long sleeve) or some other nifty base layer between myself and the eVent and get it done.
As for taking care of eVent and reconditioning it over time that doesn't bother me at all. My mountain bike needs a tune up. My ski edges need tuned. My cams and stoppers need checked and replaced. I think gear comes in two categories. Lower performing low maintenance gear. You get less out but you have to put less in or give up certain features. Then there is higher performing high maintenance gear. It really does the trick but will need tuned and cared for along the way. I'd prefer leading edge that needed maintained any day over the other. I seasonally inspect all my gear. So the eVent is already made for habits I already have.
(This post was edited by unrest on Oct 27, 2009, 7:04 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 27, 2009, 7:06 PM
Post #47 of 50
(8113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
sspssp wrote: crazyscuba wrote: I'm gonna place my bets on Hardwear, Arc'Teryx, Patagonia, Marmot and TNF since all of them have done their own long term tests and wanted to stick to what they've been doing. Note that everyone using eVent currently is fairly small and is looking for a way to break into an over saturated market. So somebody was telling me that Gortex essentailly won't sell to product lines that carry event. So the big producers (who feel they have to have Gortex for marketing reasons) don't carry event and only the little guys carry event (but not Gortex). Any truth to this or just a case of propaganda/urban myth?
(This post was edited by sungam on Oct 27, 2009, 7:15 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
karmiclimber
Oct 27, 2009, 7:24 PM
Post #48 of 50
(8108 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1058
|
Anything Arc Teryx. I've had my baby for 9 years and its still going strong.
|
|
|
|
|
crazyscuba
Oct 29, 2009, 6:34 PM
Post #49 of 50
(8065 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 5, 2003
Posts: 173
|
Nobody does both. They'll pick whichever they think works best and go with that. All of these companies have done their research and have picked what they thought was the best option.
Each one has it's upsides but in the end, it's really just a jacket.
|
|
|
|
|
rock_fencer
Oct 29, 2009, 6:44 PM
Post #50 of 50
(8062 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 7, 2005
Posts: 752
|
the coolest inovation ive found is a schoeller fabric that is impregnated with parafin such that the pore sizes change with temperature i.e. warmer = larger pore size. They determined it didnt react fast enough for use in the outdoors though. A step in the right direction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
