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sp00ki
Nov 4, 2009, 11:17 PM
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This "argument" is remarkably "interesting".
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kriso9tails
Nov 5, 2009, 12:25 AM
Post #27 of 54
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sungam wrote: Of course both of these are arbitrary labels which don't effect the actual rock at all so it really doesn't matter what they're called, I'm just portraying what seems to be the generally accepted "definitions" by those waste time pondering such things.
i) affect
ii) It's arbitrary if roped or unroped is the only factor under consideration; however, I think you are touching on the real issue here, which is that it's horribly unimportant. Everything on my 8a card is a lie anyway, so why should I let myself get bogged down in semantics?
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kriso9tails
Nov 5, 2009, 12:32 AM
Post #28 of 54
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sidepull wrote: 3) the guy is smooth - he was flying through those moves = definition of dialed
Yeah, it's kind of cool to watch such a long sequence so hardwired.
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rockandlice
Nov 5, 2009, 12:46 AM
Post #29 of 54
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i_h8_choss wrote: johnwesely wrote: In my opinion, God I love Chris Sharma.In my opinion, God I really hate your posts.
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sungam
Nov 5, 2009, 12:54 AM
Post #30 of 54
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kriso9tails wrote: sungam wrote: Of course both of these are arbitrary labels which don't effect the actual rock at all so it really doesn't matter what they're called, I'm just portraying what seems to be the generally accepted "definitions" by those waste time pondering such things. i) affect ii) It's arbitrary if roped or unroped is the only factor under consideration; however, I think you are touching on the real issue here, which is that it's horribly unimportant. Everything on my 8a card is a lie anyway, so why should I let myself get bogged down in semantics?
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kriso9tails
Nov 5, 2009, 1:08 AM
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sungam wrote: ...as well as being in agreement that I don't rite gud.
Odd, normally I wouldn't point such things out, but I guess today is just one of those days... one of those days in which I spent the last twenty minutes at my desk contemplating how to make my stapler into a more effective weapon. Hopefully I don't come up with anything particularly effective or we may just be looking at the start of the first grammar based genocide, y' know, just for something to do.
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sungam
Nov 5, 2009, 1:25 AM
Post #32 of 54
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kriso9tails wrote: sungam wrote: ...as well as being in agreement that I don't rite gud. Odd, normally I wouldn't point such things out, but I guess today is just one of those days... one of those days in which I spent the last twenty minutes at my desk contemplating how to make my stapler into a more effective weapon. Hopefully I don't come up with anything particularly effective or we may just be looking at the start of the first grammar based genocide, y' know, just for something to do.
30 questions with parts up to f, p or l to go and I just ran out of redbull.
++
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i_h8_choss
Nov 5, 2009, 8:32 AM
Post #34 of 54
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jakedatc wrote: his chalk bag was draggin on the ground for half of the problem
dab!
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i_h8_choss
Nov 5, 2009, 8:37 AM
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sidepull wrote: a few observations: 1) 15+ bouldering pads count as gear (I know, I'm exaggerating for effect) 2) I've never seen the "slap the leg, stretch the palm" shake out technique - interesting. 3) the guy is smooth - he was flying through those moves = definition of dialed 4) totally wussed out at the end - he could have traversed into that v0 for another 15 feet, that would have added at least 2 more grades.
right.....he's been working that problem for the last 7 years.
(This post was edited by i_h8_choss on Nov 5, 2009, 8:45 AM)
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yokese
Nov 5, 2009, 6:23 PM
Post #36 of 54
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While there is no doubt in my mind that the climb is hard and the climber is strong, I can't avoid finding these kind of "boulder problems" a tad boring to watch, compared to other boulder problems or sport routes. To me, cruising a roof 2 feet over the ground, lacking vertical progression (like in sport climbs or highballs) or desperate moves (like many hard boulder problems) makes watching this route somehow uninteresting.
Probably is fun to climb, though. If you are strong enough, that is.
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jakedatc
Nov 5, 2009, 7:22 PM
Post #37 of 54
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yokese wrote: While there is no doubt in my mind that the climb is hard and the climber is strong, I can't avoid finding these kind of "boulder problems" a tad boring to watch, compared to other boulder problems or sport routes. To me, cruising a roof 2 feet over the ground, lacking vertical progression (like in sport climbs or highballs) or desperate moves (like many hard boulder problems) makes watching this route somehow uninteresting. Probably is fun to climb, though. If you are strong enough, that is.
I think if it was continuous without the rests it would be a bit better.. you'd get the "oh man that's gotta be getting pumpy" kinda feel but when he hangs out for 2mins on holds good enough to shake and stretch... mehh
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sidepull
Nov 5, 2009, 7:26 PM
Post #38 of 54
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I admit that it's not as exciting when there isn't any vertical progression - I think there's something instinctively more compelling about height - but I think the desperation part is there, it's just difficult to see because he has it so wired. There were several moments where I thought, "wait, did he just hold that!?" The problem is that he's so fluid it's hard to appreciate how difficult it is.
I also agree it's difficult to call this a boulder problem. But defining what is a route and what is a boulder is becoming more and more arbitrary these days. Moreover, I'm ambivalent about whether this deserves a route grade or a boulder grade. In fact, I think I prefer the latter and here's why:
Ostensibly, routes are grades on the hardest single move. But there's a huge flaw in the argument and 8a.nu just recently took this flaw to its logical limits (see link below). The editor of the site argues that:
In reply to: To do an 8a as the second pitch should be equally as difficult as to do an 8a on the ground or at the 10th pitch. Thus, the 10th pitch is, measured only by the moves, harder then the the second pitch which is just "move-wise" slightly harder than the first pitch.
The problem with "move per move difficulty" ratings is that they ignore the basic human physiology of endurance. A route that has a crux of one V1 move cannot be the same "difficulty" of a route of 50 V1 moves even if they have the same rating. It's like arguing that a person's top speed during a 50 meter sprint should easily be sustained during the course of a marathon.
Boulder ratings improve upon this because you can describe discrete sections of a problem/route with a grade that explains that set of moves. Bouldering grades can be used this way because, bouldering, in what I would call it's "pure" form doesn't rely on endurance but power so the physiological implications are different. Moreover, a problem/route like "Sleepy Rave" doesn't have a single V15 move if not done as a link up. Instead, the rating is based on the idea that the hardest move is much harder because of the previous work, thereby taking into account the issue of endurance.
I'm not arguing that every route needs 3, 4, 5, .. N boulder grades to describe each section. For the most part, the rather loose and generic Yosemite grades (or French grades) give the general idea. But at the limits of climbing, it makes more sense to think of stacked boulder problems as generating a cumulative grade (controlling for potential rests).
http://www.8a.nu/...;CountryCode=GLOBAL.
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sidepull
Nov 6, 2009, 10:49 PM
Post #39 of 54
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Wow - I can't believe that didn't get a response. I guess I need to be less thoughtful and more trollish (eg., misspell a few words, make outlandish claims, ask stupid questions based on dubious knowledge, etc.).
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kriso9tails
Nov 6, 2009, 11:17 PM
Post #40 of 54
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What kind of response would you like? I can custom build them to order.
I think that a YDS grade better reflects the nature of the line and its difficulty; however, based on how it is, for lack of a better word, protected, it's still a boulder problem. Because I view problems of this length as somewhat of an exception, I don't see a reason to break convention of which grading system to use.
When it comes to link ups I tend to have a bit of an issue. I know of a problem that links up a V4 with a (soft imo) V5. It was graded V6/7, but the moves through the link up are easier than the crux moves of either problem. The problem got longer, which certainly changes things a bit, but move for move it's no harder.
If I cared much about the issue, I'd be opposed to grading based on an endurance factor in bouldering period. As it is, I call the afore mentioned problem a V5, but everyone else is free to call it as they see it. Then again, I guess it's that way with all grades as far as I'm concerned.
(This post was edited by kriso9tails on Nov 7, 2009, 12:01 AM)
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i_h8_choss
Nov 6, 2009, 11:24 PM
Post #41 of 54
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sidepull wrote: Wow - I can't believe that didn't get a response. I guess I need to be less thoughtful and more trollish (eg., misspell a few words, make outlandish claims, ask stupid questions based on dubious knowledge, etc.).
To my understanding he did a V12 into a V9 then another V12. Whoopie-Dooo. I agree w/ you. Where's the 15 move or the 14 or 13 move?? The dude is from Aussie and I bet he's been climbing there for several years. Its his training ground. Congrats to him. I really wonder what he would do on a problem like the Mandala, or any other crimpy, overhanging highball somewhere outside of his backyard. Would it take him years to wire those moves too? Probably. All V3 climbers out there should go to thier backyard bouldering area and start working the area testpiece. Train hard, work the moves, and in 4 or 6 years, check back with us, and tell us all about that classic Vblahblah.
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johnwesely
Nov 7, 2009, 12:23 AM
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i_h8_choss wrote: I really wonder what he would do on a problem like the Mandala, or any other crimpy, overhanging highball somewhere outside of his backyard. .
He would probably do pretty well. He is obviously talented and strong.
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dingus
Nov 7, 2009, 1:45 AM
Post #43 of 54
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I think that vid represents utter poetry and power in motion. Total random click on my part I rarely watch such things. Thanks for posting it.
DMT
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yanqui
Nov 7, 2009, 3:05 AM
Post #44 of 54
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dingus wrote: I think that vid represents utter poetry and power in motion. Total random click on my part I rarely watch such things. Thanks for posting it. DMT
Word.
Nothing more irritating than a bunch of second rate, insecure internet posers who need to stroke their own ego by flinging shit at somebody who climbs light years better than they do.
(This post was edited by yanqui on Nov 7, 2009, 4:30 AM)
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climbsomething
Nov 7, 2009, 8:02 AM
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kriso9tails wrote: Hopefully I don't come up with anything particularly effective or we may just be looking at the start of the first grammar based genocide, y' know, just for something to do.
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i_h8_choss
Nov 7, 2009, 11:15 AM
Post #46 of 54
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johnwesely wrote: i_h8_choss wrote: I really wonder what he would do on a problem like the Mandala, or any other crimpy, overhanging highball somewhere outside of his backyard. . He would probably do pretty well. He is obviously talented and strong.
probably. the dude's got that "light as a feather" look.
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kriso9tails
Nov 7, 2009, 6:05 PM
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climbsomething wrote: kriso9tails wrote: Hopefully I don't come up with anything particularly effective or we may just be looking at the start of the first grammar based genocide, y' know, just for something to do. Are women allowed in combat? *sharpens bayonet*
I've heard that articulate women are like kryptonite to uneducated men, so yes, women are more than welcome.
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fluxus
Nov 10, 2009, 7:37 PM
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This is a rare boulder problem indeed, multiple rests and a total climbing duration of three minutes and ten seconds, which puts it well into the range of a sport route. I am in the camp that says this should get a route rating because giving this a bouldering grade effectively eliminates what use to the meaningful distinctions between routes and boulder problems.
The two different grading scales initially developed to reflect the different variables that define each type of challenge. The physical challenges faced on a "boulder problem" of this length have far more in common with the physical and tactical challenge of climbing a route that they do with climbing something 15 feet long.
Finally Noting that the problem is a link up of long V9's and a V12, means that the hardest individual moves in the climb could possibly be V10 or easier. So even if it keeps the V grade, the V grade is being used the way we use route grades, in that there is a large distance between the hardest individual moves and the total difficulty of the climb. In bouldering we expect the gap between the hardest move and the over all difficulty to be much smaller.
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camhead
Nov 10, 2009, 7:53 PM
Post #49 of 54
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I believe that France has a separate rating system for unroped traverses that presumably factors in endurance. That would be useful for this sort of route.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 7:20 AM
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Could these link ups between routes not possible be harder than the actual crux moves of the original routes?
Btw: I do not think such a long route should get a bouldering grade. A long route makes endurance too much part of the grade and I do not think bouldering should be about endurance.
I must say this guys footwork is impressive.
(This post was edited by airscape on Nov 11, 2009, 7:33 AM)
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