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gojo_66
Nov 11, 2009, 4:31 AM
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I'm working on an access issue dealing with rock art and have met with a chemical archeologist who works in the area and is very anti-climbing chalk. I also found an interesting study done on climbing chalk that suggests it reduces friction on the rock itself.
http://www.tetonat.com/Gallery/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=7118
I was wondering if anybody could give any info on some alternatives to chalk and how effective they are.
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minibiter
Nov 11, 2009, 4:54 AM
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There was an eco-chalk they made us use at a comp once. It came in chalk balls only, was kind of green-ish, and mostly worthless.
Guess that's not too helpful...
Powerwashers are great
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ShaggyDawg
Nov 11, 2009, 5:30 AM
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Don't use chalk. It's just a gimmick promoted by gear companies who want to sell you 30 cents worth of leftover fabric for 30 dollars by calling it a chalk bag.
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subantz
Nov 11, 2009, 6:01 AM
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Elmers Glue! Sticky and dries clear. Or super glue yea you will stick to those hard to hold slopers.
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west_by_god_virginia
Nov 11, 2009, 6:33 AM
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gojo_66 wrote: I also found an interesting study done on climbing chalk that suggests it reduces friction on the rock itself.
Do they really need to do a study to tell you that a rock covered in white powder is going to be slippery compared with rock without powder all over it?
(This post was edited by west_by_god_virginia on Nov 11, 2009, 7:21 AM)
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 7:03 AM
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Doesn't resin wear out the rock and make it slippery?
Resin = the stuff gymnasts use.
I remember something about Chalk is 100% ok for rock, but resin kills it.
I also remember that some of the French use resin instead of chalk in some areas.
But I could be wrong.
Edit: I might look it up if I can get a cookie.
(This post was edited by airscape on Nov 11, 2009, 7:04 AM)
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kriso9tails
Nov 11, 2009, 7:12 AM
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west_by_god_virginia wrote: Do they really need to do a study to tell you that a rock covered in white powder on a rock is going to be slippery compared with rock without powder all over it?
Until I read that study, I thought the brush I kept with my chalk bag was just in case I was having some sort of bad breath emergency while trying to impress the ladies with my impressive lack of a shirt and brightly coloured toque (a.k.a. beanie).
Now I realize that it's there to help me with this chalk problem. I can totally use my brush to stab other boulderers int he eyes before they get a chance to fuck up my line with their white devil powder.
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kriso9tails
Nov 11, 2009, 7:39 AM
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airscape wrote: Doesn't resin wear out the rock and make it slippery? Resin = the stuff gymnasts use. I remember something about Chalk is 100% ok for rock, but resin kills it. I also remember that some of the French use resin instead of chalk in some areas. But I could be wrong. Edit: I might look it up if I can get a cookie.
I've heard the pof vs. chalk debate before, and frankly I've never found it that interesting. People still use pof way out there in somewhere land, but I'm not actually sure how common it is or in which areas it might be considered typical. I'm told that Fontainebleau has had a mix of chalk users and pof users for some time, but I haven't had the good fortune to climb there. It's always been the first place I've thought about when pof is mentioned though.
I'm not sure that I'd say that chalk is 100% okay for rock, or rather, that the way it gets used is 100% okay. I mean, you can't just cake a hold with chalk and then brush the hell out of it and not expect to see wear. Well, okay, maybe a single person can, but in popular areas where this abuse is constant, the rock is going to be damaged.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 9:03 AM
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WInd and sea also deteriorate rock, so a couple of years earlier deterioration by using chalk ain't that big of a deal.
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jgross
Nov 11, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Wow, that was an interesting research paper. Counter-intuitive, but it makes sense.
Here is a product aimed mainly at golfers and tennis players that looks interesting:
http://www.dryhands.com/
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I_do
Nov 11, 2009, 11:16 AM
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airscape wrote: WInd and sea also deteriorate rock, so a couple of years earlier deterioration by using chalk ain't that big of a deal.
You obviously haven't seen what heavy traffic does to rock.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 11:33 AM
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I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds,
Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade.
In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye.
GIve or take a million years.
(This post was edited by airscape on Nov 11, 2009, 11:33 AM)
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I_do
Nov 11, 2009, 12:01 PM
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airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade. In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye. GIve or take a million years.
Sure but on well travelled lime it get's polished as shit especially as chalk reacts with the rock is all I'm saying.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Yah, I've heard that limestone gets really worn by climbing. But with limestone huge rain storm might even wear it noticably.
I have never visited a lime crag before, so I haven't seen the effects of climbing on it.
I also know the softer sandstone crags get lots of wear on them. Especially if the rock is wet.
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gojo_66
Nov 11, 2009, 2:25 PM
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When trying to open a climbing area with rock art, you need all the studies you can find. Climbing chalk interferes with rock art dating techniques and other stuff. So if I show this study to the state park and explain that caking chalk on the rocks doesn't even enhance the climbing experience, and that our proposed management plan includes a chalk alternative, it would be better than trying to explain it to him without the study.
Also, so many boulderers do still think that brushing chalk into the rocks improves the friction. While it may be obvious to most that caking chalk on a hold is going to fill in all the microscopic features, some people think chalk=friction in every scenario. The last time I went out bouldering a dude used up a good bit of his chalk bag decorating a boulder, and despite all his hard work he was only making the friction worse.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 2:43 PM
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Chalk is a huge mental thing, Chalk alternative will most likely make people climb worse, since it will affect their mental state.
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 2:51 PM
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BTW. Why does rock art have to be left where it was originaly found? Why can't they pull up the rocks or cut out the slab to place it in a museum?
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dynosore
Nov 11, 2009, 4:15 PM
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I_do wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade. In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye. GIve or take a million years. Sure but on well travelled lime it get's polished as shit especially as chalk reacts with the rock is all I'm saying.
What reaction occurs between rock and chalk? Hmmm....
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I_do
Nov 11, 2009, 4:36 PM
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dynosore wrote: I_do wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade. In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye. GIve or take a million years. Sure but on well travelled lime it get's polished as shit especially as chalk reacts with the rock is all I'm saying. What reaction occurs between rock and chalk? Hmmm....
I'm sure someone here knows, I can't be arsed looking it up. Even if I'm wrong on the reaction thing lime still gets polished as shit.
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dynosore
Nov 11, 2009, 4:45 PM
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I_do wrote: dynosore wrote: I_do wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade. In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye. GIve or take a million years. Sure but on well travelled lime it get's polished as shit especially as chalk reacts with the rock is all I'm saying. What reaction occurs between rock and chalk? Hmmm.... ' I'm sure someone here knows, I can't be arsed looking it up. Even if I'm wrong on the reaction thing lime still gets polished as shit.
I'm not much of a chalk user myself so I'm not defending it, but chalk does NOT react with the rock. As a matter of fact, chalk is a "rock", compositionally speaking.
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I_do
Nov 11, 2009, 5:13 PM
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dynosore wrote: I_do wrote: dynosore wrote: I_do wrote: airscape wrote: I have actually, there is a crag nearby where there are about a million glued on holds, Which I find poor taste. If something breaks, the route must get a new grade. In terms of the Earths perspective all our rock climbing carnage will be gone in a blink of an eye. GIve or take a million years. Sure but on well travelled lime it get's polished as shit especially as chalk reacts with the rock is all I'm saying. What reaction occurs between rock and chalk? Hmmm.... ' I'm sure someone here knows, I can't be arsed looking it up. Even if I'm wrong on the reaction thing lime still gets polished as shit. I'm not much of a chalk user myself so I'm not defending it, but chalk does NOT react with the rock. As a matter of fact, chalk is a "rock", compositionally speaking.
Crap now I'm going to have to look for it after all.
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I_do
Nov 11, 2009, 5:17 PM
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Apperently qwert nows something, other then that my memory might have just failed me
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shimanilami
Nov 11, 2009, 5:21 PM
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Dear Einstein,
How about not using chalk?
Best regards,
Shimi
Edit - so I don't get banzed.
(This post was edited by shimanilami on Nov 11, 2009, 5:26 PM)
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airscape
Nov 11, 2009, 5:29 PM
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Unbelievable!! Chalk really does react with certain rock types. The rock must contain trace amounts of barium salts eg. some limestone types.
Who would have thunk it: Here is the article:
http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org...ent/full/101/19/1330
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bill413
Nov 11, 2009, 6:10 PM
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Thanks for that citation.
More seriously, there was an article quite a while back that concluded that chalk itself did not react with rock but that it did trap oils/sweat/grease/organic acids from the hands and keep them on the rock. This could accelerate rock breakdown.
I think the article may have originated in a Wyoming or Colorado school, but I'm not sure.
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