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id251
Dec 8, 2009, 2:03 AM
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I need your expertise and advice to select or find a belay device to lead multi ice pitches roped solo. After a long search, I ended up with only few options:
1.The Silent Partner might not work in wet icy condition. In dry sub-frezzing condition, I heard it works fine (Roadkill torture tests).
2.The Soloist can do the job but does'nt hold upside down falls! Back up knots will.
3.Grigri (modified or not) might not hold upside down falls! Back up knots will.
4.Eddy (I also read healyje technics on this system) do not hold in a certain position (Edelrid has confirmed)
I believe at this point the perfect device is not created yet and a matter of inconvenience is my choice. Does any one can go further or share his/her experiment in this topic?
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cclarke
Dec 8, 2009, 2:43 PM
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Definite no on the Silent Partner.
I've used an ATC Guide rigged in autoblock mode but it won't hold an upside down fall so frequent back up knots are required. I wouldn't recommend this method but it might be better than nothing. Some guy from New Zealand has a website where the basic idea is demonstrated with a Reverso (I think).
Simplest thing to do is solo an easy route and set up a top rope on something harder.
Yer gonna die or at least be mildly uncomfortable.
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moose_droppings
Dec 8, 2009, 3:12 PM
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id251 wrote: I need your expertise and advice to select or find a belay device to lead multi ice pitches roped solo. After a long search, I ended up with only few options: 1.The Silent Partner might not work in wet icy condition. In dry sub-frezzing condition, I heard it works fine (Roadkill torture tests). 2.The Soloist can do the job but does'nt hold upside down falls! Back up knots will. 3.Grigri (modified or not) might not hold upside down falls! Back up knots will. 4.Eddy (I also read healyje technics on this system) do not hold in a certain position (Edelrid has confirmed) I believe at this point the perfect device is not created yet and a matter of inconvenience is my choice. Does any one can go further or share his/her experiment in this topic?
Good on you for doing your homework and then asking.
I think what your going to get here is a bunch of different preferences since you've already figured out that there isn't a perfect device for this application and they all come with some degree inconvenience as you put it.
That being said, my preference is the soloist. It feeds fairly well, is easy on the rope and catches fall predictably within it's known limitations and adding the security of backup knots makes it the best device for roped soloing in the colder conditions that your talking about.
spell edit
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Dec 8, 2009, 3:14 PM)
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adatesman
Dec 8, 2009, 3:33 PM
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the_climber
Dec 8, 2009, 8:53 PM
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If you're going to solo ice just solo it, don't bother with a clusterfuck trying to rope solo on ice. If you're risking a fall on ice you are already past the envelope and have no business being there, period. Ice is not a place to fall.
Bring a rope when you solo ice, wear your harness, have a couple screws racked up, and have your V-thread kit ready (aka your al-be-backen-off kit). This is only to get you down should you decide to back off, or after you top out. Roped solo is not effective on ice. If you're worried about security, use leashes.
adatesman, haven't heard, or experienced any issue with the Eddy either.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Dec 8, 2009, 10:20 PM)
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edge
Dec 8, 2009, 9:30 PM
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the_climber wrote: If you're going to solo ice just solo it, don't bother with a clusterfuck trying to rope solo on ice. If you're risking a fall on ice you are already past the envelope and have no business being there, period. Ice is not a place to fall. Bring a rope when you solo ice, wear your harness, have a couple screws racked up, and have your V-thread kit ready (aka your al-be-backen-off kit). This is only to get you down should you decide to back off, or ofter you top out. Roped solo is not effective on ice. If you're worried about security, use leashes. adatesman, haven't heard, or experienced any issue with the Eddy either.
The man speaks the truth^^^^^
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healyje
Dec 9, 2009, 12:34 AM
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id251 wrote: 4.Eddy (I also read healyje technics on this system) do not hold in a certain position (Edelrid has confirmed)
Please clarify. Thanks.
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id251
Dec 9, 2009, 2:38 AM
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Thanks for your quick replies.
The Eddy: I talked(write) to Stephane Perron the canadian who soloed Free Rider with a soloist. As I liked the Healyje system with the Eddy, I told Stephane I was going to get one. He reported to me that at a gym, a guy felt down to the floor while on lead as his belayer didn't catch the fall. It was not a matter of pulling the lever, bad handling, wrong rope or biner's restriction. The dawm thing just didn't catch it. The company, Edelrid, had admit that in a certain position the Eddy don't block. To remedy to that problem, Edelrid propose to follow their procedures in the instruction's manual. I do not have more details, it is all I have. I know, you could write to Edelrid to get more data on the belay device limitation and they will probably repeat what I said. Now, the big concern is to ask yourselves if you still want to trust the eddy, especiallly the ones who doen't use back up knots.
ATC Guide/Reverso: I used the reverso in a similar way the Guy from New Zealand did and I find it quite interesting and with a good feeling regarding feeding and works. But as I was uneasy with the fact of a factor 2 fall on it I ask the guys at BD. KP awnsered me that in the case of a fall, the impact could just squeezed hardly the rope side by side in that narrow reverso slot and leave you stucked unable to unjam the melted ropes. The other concern, and the one I feared, is the factor 2 impact that goes directly on that small amount of metal of the reverso that connect you to life, instead of a biner. That said, I stopped using it to lead roped solo.
The climber: I understand your point and I used to flirt that way, times ago, even pulling the evil's tail. Now with a wife and 2 kids on my conscience, I rarely do integral solo.
What we share as back ground can help to pick up a choice. Up to now, and with everything I read, shared and figured out, my choice of the lesser evil would also, like Moose dr., be the soloist with back up knots. Stéphane use also the soloist for winter climbing. He did the Pomme d'Or 350 m IV WI5.
Yes, it would be very instructive to get Mark Blanchard points of view...
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cclarke
Dec 9, 2009, 3:58 AM
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I would be concerned about the mechanical devices (soloist, grigri, etc) icing up and not moving properly to stop the rope in a fall. Probably a small risk on a nice cold dry climb but it seems like running water is pretty common and sometimes unexpectedly develops in mid-climb.
Back up knots could prevent a catastrophic outcome which is really the goal since falling shouid be a remote possibility only, right?
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adatesman
Dec 9, 2009, 4:16 AM
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uni_jim
Dec 9, 2009, 4:42 AM
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My ice experience is limited, but I hae done a considerable ammount of rope solo. I second theclimber in that you may be better off packing the rope and gear. But, if you are set on using rope, I would recommend a soloist. It is the device I use, and it is butter smooth to use. The other devices (aside from the SP) who you list, while they may work, were not designed for rope soloing. I know there are several accomplished solo climbers who swear by the grigri, but I am more comfortable knowing that my gear is being used for what it was made for. The concern about the soloist not catching all falls is not as big a deal as people make it up to be. Think of all of the lead falls you may have taken in the gym or on rock (I am assuming you have not had nearly as many falls on ice). My guess is that most of them were NOT inverted falls. For the once in a while when you are exposed to an invertd fall, you have a backup knot, and you should be able to predict the exposure to such a fall, and just tie your backup knot closer to the device. You may fall further than if the device caught you, but if you are paying attenton to the system and you gear holds, you will still be kept off the deck.
A big thing to concider when you decide to lead solo is that you do not get the dynamic catch that a belayer would give you. Rope strtch takes care of this after a while, but for the first 10 or so meters of your pitch, you are expsed to a violent catch, so overprotecting and using screamers is a good idea, especially on ice.
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angry
Dec 9, 2009, 4:57 AM
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It's clearly a joke, there are several give aways. Sorry.
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healyje
Dec 9, 2009, 4:58 AM
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Thanks for the clarification.
id251 wrote: The Eddy: I talked(write) to Stephane Perron the canadian who soloed Free Rider with a soloist. As I liked the Healyje system with the Eddy, I told Stephane I was going to get one. He reported to me that at a gym, a guy felt down to the floor while on lead as his belayer didn't catch the fall. It was not a matter of pulling the lever, bad handling, wrong rope or biner's restriction. The damn thing just didn't catch it. The company, Edelrid, had admit that in a certain position the Eddy don't block.
Stephane is without a doubt the person who has free rope soloed the hardest routes on a Soloist - a device notorious for the damn thing not catching when people fall in a horizontal or upside down orientation - my old partner being one of them.
And then there is the Grigri - they have dropped legions of people with the rope just streaming through them without ever catching. But the thing you have to realize is that the Eddy, Grigri, and Cinch are not 'autolocking' devices - they are belay devices that depend on rope tension you supply in order to trigger the locking function. There will always be circumstances where the rope won't catch.
id251 wrote: Now, the big concern is to ask yourselves if you still want to trust the eddy, especiallly the ones who doen't use back up knots.
Absolutely, I trust an Eddy locking up way, way more than I trust the Soloist - which I don't trust at all.
id251 wrote: ATC Guide/Reverso
There are no circumstances which would lead me to use any ATC device for roped soloing.
Bottomline? Free roped soloing is a matter of 'picking your poison', knowing the limitations of your choices, and honing both your system and use of it.
If you want as close to a sure thing as possible (on rock) I'd say use a Silent Partner - it just involves trade-offs I'm not prepared to make and sounds like Stephane isn't either.
As for a roped soloing device for climbing ice? From my perspective the Silent Partner is out, the Eddy and Grigri are out, pretty much comes down to the Soloist which is the least likely to ice jam (and maybe that's why Stephane uses it for rock - to stick with a single device for both rock and ice).
(This post was edited by healyje on Dec 9, 2009, 6:00 AM)
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JimTitt
Dec 9, 2009, 7:53 PM
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"ATC Guide/Reverso: I used the reverso in a similar way the Guy from New Zealand did and I find it quite interesting and with a good feeling regarding feeding and works. But as I was uneasy with the fact of a factor 2 fall on it I ask the guys at BD. KP awnsered me that in the case of a fall, the impact could just squeezed hardly the rope side by side in that narrow reverso slot and leave you stucked unable to unjam the melted ropes. The other concern, and the one I feared, is the factor 2 impact that goes directly on that small amount of metal of the reverso that connect you to life, instead of a biner. That said, I stopped using it to lead roped solo. "
KP´s not far wrong there! I just pull tested both of these plates for a guy on a parallel thread about this on UKC. The rope sort of half pops through and jams like hell, you have to dismantle the whole thing and wrench the locking krab around to get it free.
If you hit EVEN harder the rope goes all the way through and the holding power falls way down, as you will!
The flimsy little eye holds anything you can throw at it!
Jim
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roy_hinkley_jr
Dec 9, 2009, 8:43 PM
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id251 wrote: I need your expertise and advice to select or find a belay device to lead multi ice pitches roped solo. After a long search, I ended up with only few options:
You left out the best option: clove hitch. The gizmos feed better but are unreliable on wet rope. The clove hitch is simple, reliable, and (assuming you are climbing leashless) easy to adjust. But free soloing is safer than any roped-solo option on ice.
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subantz
Dec 9, 2009, 10:11 PM
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i WISH i HAD A SILENT PARTNER. mINE IS A beta SPAYER.
i ALWAYS SAY SHUT IT UP I AM AFTER A ONSIGHT HERE DOUCHE BAG GOD. YEA 700TH POST
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xtrmecat
Dec 9, 2009, 10:31 PM
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I know healyje, that we are of differing opinion, but I believe this statement you made to be completely misleading, or at the least very false.
"Stephane is without a doubt the person who has free rope soloed the hardest routes on a Soloist - a device notorious for the damn thing not catching when people fall in a horizontal or upside down orientation - my old partner being one of them. "
The Stephanie part excluded, I have used the soloist for many a mile, and fallen many a time on it too. It doesn't fail in any horizontal situations that I am aware of, and everything must be just right(wrong) to have an upside down fall feed through to the backup knott.
I have only had the device feed through once, and it was clearly because of the situation, and doubtful that it could be repeated. Not that many people have a tethered pig pull them off a ledge system upside down.
I cannot even guess where the horizontal issue could possibly come from. My guess is contempt prior to research. I have fallen on my device enough to be very sure of my statements, and I am not so sure of the others claims.
It would be fine for ice, with the exception of being strenuous to retie backups while in steep terrain, and needing to move on. Also very necessary.
Bob
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healyje
Dec 9, 2009, 10:44 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: The Stephanie part excluded, I have used the soloist for many a mile, and fallen many a time on it too. It doesn't fail in any horizontal situations that I am aware of, and everything must be just right(wrong) to have an upside down fall feed through to the backup knott.
My old partner, a very talented and long-time Soloist user, decked in a in a fall with a horizontal orientation. Lower crux, enough rope ran and with slack in the system that the backup knot was too far out.
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gulla826
Dec 9, 2009, 11:02 PM
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I used the soloist this summer to TR solo with and thought it worked great (make sure you use a chest harness). I have for some time been contemplating using it on ice. I don't see it having a problem locking off on a iced or wet rope as long as the device itself isn't iced up.
I agree with the statement that you might as well just solo the think then lead solo it being that the golden rule of the leader should never fall sill applies to ice.
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healyje
Dec 10, 2009, 12:03 AM
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gulla826 wrote: I used the soloist this summer to TR solo with and thought it worked great (make sure you use a chest harness).
It works great until it doesn't - which is a problem it shares with all the devices except the SP. I have used the Soloist before, but I rejected it in my case both because I can't stand having anything on my chest, and the inverted (and now horizontal) fall streaming makes it a non-starter for me.
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airforceclmr
Dec 10, 2009, 1:12 AM
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I have to admit that i have been considering TR soloing ice with a mini trax. In the end i have to agree that just plain solo in probably the cleanest way to climb alone.
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reno
Dec 10, 2009, 5:09 AM
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the_climber wrote: If you're going to solo ice just solo it, don't bother with a clusterfuck trying to rope solo on ice. If you're risking a fall on ice you are already past the envelope and have no business being there, period. Ice is not a place to fall.
^^^ That.
In reply to: Bring a rope when you solo ice, wear your harness, have a couple screws racked up, and have your V-thread kit ready (aka your al-be-backen-off kit). This is only to get you down should you decide to back off, or after you top out. Roped solo is not effective on ice. If you're worried about security, use leashes.
Wasn't I'lllbi Bakinov a famous Russian climber? 
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