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dingus
Jan 2, 2010, 4:52 PM
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billl7 wrote: how do you categorically factor jitters out of leading??? Bill L
Calculus and fractals mainly.
DMT
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 5:08 PM
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dingus wrote: billl7 wrote: how do you categorically factor jitters out of leading??? Bill L Calculus and fractals mainly. DMT
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jan 2, 2010, 5:09 PM)
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 5:12 PM
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You can continue to mince words all you want. Same for the rest of you men who can never be wrong. Anyone who has ever learned to lead can tell the difference between new leader jitters (as in just learning) and generalized leading jitters. You aren't going to lead at the grade that you will eventually plateau to your first couple of times leading. Is this concept truly so difficult to comprehend?
Have fun arguing. I'm goin' climbing.
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dingus
Jan 2, 2010, 5:26 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: . I'm goin' climbing.
In Ohio?
DMT
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milesenoell
Jan 2, 2010, 5:53 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: You can continue to mince words all you want. Same for the rest of you men who can never be wrong. Anyone who has ever learned to lead can tell the difference between new leader jitters (as in just learning) and generalized leading jitters. You aren't going to lead at the grade that you will eventually plateau to your first couple of times leading. Is this concept truly so difficult to comprehend? Have fun arguing. I'm goin' climbing.
PMS or just a hangover?
The irony of your attacking a clear opinion (and dare I say, one more widely held than your own) and then choosing to spit venom not only at dingus but at men in general, and then suggesting that any further discussion is worthless "arguing" is laughable. Not only have you not made a convincing case for your view, but you have made it clear that you aren't about to convince anyone.
Especially for those who climb trad rather than sport, the possibility of injury from falling makes overcoming your fears a much headier subject (pardon the pun). Overcoming fear and climbing to failure on gear ceases to be a just about your mind and starts to have very real threats to your body associated with it.
Is there an arc to how your mind gets better at overcoming fear and allowing you to unlock your potential? Of course. But don't be so daft as to confuse that with getting over some hump that leaves you free of trying to balance the very real consequences of falling with your attempts to climb to the limits of your ability.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Jan 2, 2010, 7:05 PM)
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dudemanbu
Jan 2, 2010, 6:33 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Oh save it, old man with a stick up ur arse. You get over leading jitters pretty fast, if you want to. And you can't compute what grade someone is climbing at until it's down to skill and not jitters. Just because I said they weren't a 5.8 climber doesn't make them a 12c climber with potential. It makes their level indeterminate. Now go pick fights with the newbs in beginners mkay?
Dingus is right. The op is climbing at his/her ability level. Regardless what the reason that he/she is not climbing at the level of his potential, ie, fear of falling, lack of strength, lack of technique, ability and potential are not the same.
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 6:58 PM
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Come back and play some more when you are done climbing!
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Potts875
Jan 2, 2010, 7:18 PM
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I dunno...what about a "newer" climber that cranks 5.12 on a TR but cant clip it because of nerves?
Where does this fit in the ability scale if they cant lead it?
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dingus
Jan 2, 2010, 7:20 PM
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Potts875 wrote: I dunno...what about a "newer" climber that cranks 5.12 on a TR but cant clip it because of nerves? Where does this fit in the ability scale if they cant lead it?
What part of 'can't' fails to compute?
Its a 1 or a 0, mate. Can do it, or cannot.
DMT
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 7:29 PM
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So because I'm a female who stands by her opinion, I'm either pms-ing or I hate men right? I am just a spicy little taquito. Gag! I don't have have any venom. Bill gave a smartass reply to the new leader and so I gave a smartass reply to him. And I do think arguing on here is laughable...its an online forum...instead of talking about climbing, why not go climbing? I went to the gym. I KNOW...I must be a newb.
Its not fair to put a new leader in a box. "Hey. 5.6 climber scaredy cat. You are a 5.6 climber scaredy cat." Why not encourage them and not put them in a box and see where they can go?
And yet again...if anyone read my posts. I'm not talking about climbing stuff you can't finish...I'm talking about taking a way easier grade than you KNOW you are capable of sending...because you are certain you can't fall...but you are afraid to push further because of fear of failure. When I was a new leader I said I was a new leader. Not a 5.7 climber. Some days I climbed 6's, 7's, 8's, even 9's. And I didn't fall on any of them. What kind of climber does that make me? A new leader.
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 7:35 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Bill gave a smartass reply to the new leader ....
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 7:37 PM
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And why did you resurrect this 11 month old thread just to mince words?
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jan 2, 2010, 7:37 PM)
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 7:37 PM
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I'm sorry Bill. It was Dingus. I knew it was one of you old mans.
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 7:39 PM
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I didn't. It was this person:
In reply to: d0nk3yk0n9 PM Friend Ohio, United States Feb 2, 2009, 4:16 PM Post #30 of 63 (727 views) Shortcut Registered: Jan 21, 2009 Posts: 174 Re: [milesenoell] New to leading and afraid to fall [In reply to] Your vote: Average: (0 ratings) Quote | Reply I know that the gym that I climb at requires you to take a lead fall before you can lead in the gym unsupervised. Also, before you can lead belay in the gym without staff supervision, you have to catch a lead fall. Thus, they teach people how to do it, let them test their skills, and then let them use them on their own. Also, as someone above said, falling isn't that bad. It's hitting the ground that sucks. That said, as long as you don't get injured, falling, decking, and all variations thereof are extremely fun and exhilarating experiences.
And it was on the lastest posts forums, which is basically the only thing I read on here...and I did not look at the original date.
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dingus
Jan 2, 2010, 7:43 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: I'm sorry Bill. It was Dingus. I knew it was one of you old mans.
S'all right karmiclimber. We'll all get over it.
Food for thought - you're female eh? I did not recall you or your sex, when I posted my response. So I guess you will have to save that Little Miss Hair Trigger Routine you do for someone else.
Now you are right about climbers trying to climb up to their POTENTIAL. I totally agree with your point, just not the way you phrased it. There I can live with that.
Carry on!
DMT
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 7:45 PM
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Dingus...It was Bill who accused me of PMS-ing. So I was directing that at him. I prefer to be treated like an equal. After all, no one offers Jay a tampon when he goes off like he does.
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 7:46 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: I didn't. It was this person:
Bill L
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 7:48 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Dingus...It was Bill who accused me of PMS-ing. So I was directing that at him.
Edit: I think you meant this guy ...
milesenoell wrote: karmiclimber wrote: You can continue to mince words all you want. Same for the rest of you men who can never .... PMS or just a hangover?
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jan 2, 2010, 7:51 PM)
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 7:51 PM
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LMAO. Poor Bill. It was that MilesOneil dude. Or whoever. I am really. REALLY sorry Bill. You are probably a hot hot old man
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seatbeltpants
Jan 2, 2010, 7:57 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: So because I'm a female who stands by her opinion, I'm either pms-ing or I hate men right? I am just a spicy little taquito. Gag! I don't have have any venom. Bill gave a smartass reply to the new leader and so I gave a smartass reply to him. And I do think arguing on here is laughable...its an online forum...instead of talking about climbing, why not go climbing? I went to the gym. I KNOW...I must be a newb. Its not fair to put a new leader in a box. "Hey. 5.6 climber scaredy cat. You are a 5.6 climber scaredy cat." Why not encourage them and not put them in a box and see where they can go? And yet again...if anyone read my posts. I'm not talking about climbing stuff you can't finish...I'm talking about taking a way easier grade than you KNOW you are capable of sending...because you are certain you can't fall...but you are afraid to push further because of fear of failure. When I was a new leader I said I was a new leader. Not a 5.7 climber. Some days I climbed 6's, 7's, 8's, even 9's. And I didn't fall on any of them. What kind of climber does that make me? A new leader.
i can see what you're saying, but i am surprised that you don't seem to understand what everyone else is saying. it really doesn't make any difference if a climber's grade is limited by strength, skill, or fear - it's completely irrelevant which of these is the limiting factor.
you argue that a new leader who can only lead 5.7 isn't a "5.7 climber" because they could climb harder on top rope. how is that different to saying that someone who can only lead 5.7 on a slab isn't a 5.7 climber because they can climb 5.10 on overhanging routes? or a climber who can lead 5.10 on slabs but lacks the strength to climb 5.7 on an overhanging route?
why does it matter which weakness it is which is limiting them? it seems that you're arguing that physical weakness determines how hard you climb, but mental weakness (apologies for the slur implicit in that, not exactly which i mean) is exempt from this... training to increase you phsical strength will increase the grade you climb but mental training just moves you closer to your potential???
In reply to: You can't compute what grade a new leader is climbing at until they are actually attempting the highest grade they can climb without falling.
what's to compute? if you can climb 5.8 you're a 5.8 leader, 5.9 you're a 5.9 leader, etc. it seems that you're making excuses to make new leaders feel better - "we know you can only lead 5.6, but that's not your real grade limit because i saw you top rope a 5.10". it doesn't matter what is preventing you from climbing harder, and no computation required.
steve
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dingus
Jan 2, 2010, 7:59 PM
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karmiclimber wrote: Dingus...It was Bill who accused me of PMS-ing. So I was directing that at him. I prefer to be treated like an equal. After all, no one offers Jay a tampon when he goes off like he does.
Cool. You were right to take Old Bill to task for that.
Cheers
DMT
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billl7
Jan 2, 2010, 8:05 PM
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dingus wrote: Cool. You were right to take Old Bill to task for that. Cheers DMT
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 8:17 PM
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I can be wooed with bouquets of biners, sportiva katanas and promises of New Mexico climbing adventures.
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karmiclimber
Jan 2, 2010, 8:19 PM
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I agree with everything you are saying. That is honestly not my point though. I don't know how else to better explain it. Apparently my communication skills are lacking. And there is a sale at my local gear shop that is preventing cognitive development of reasonable argument.
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