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nsutherl
Apr 14, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Hey gals and guys. I was thinking today, instead of using the traditional method of anchoring a top rope, where you loop webbing through both bolts (I call it the triangle method), is it safe to use this method:
Essentially, I've made my own quickdraws out of 2 locking carabiners and a loop of webbing. The webbing has been "doubled up" so the loop is half the original size. Is this safe?
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bennydh
Apr 14, 2010, 6:56 PM
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-1
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patmay81
Apr 14, 2010, 6:57 PM
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yup, its really common, not new at all. i usually use two quick draws, most of the time i dont even bother with lockers for top rope.
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nsutherl
Apr 14, 2010, 7:00 PM
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Cool thanks for the input
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summerprophet
Apr 14, 2010, 7:01 PM
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Not only is this safe, this is somewhat of a standard anchoring set-up.
The other method you described (looping webbing through bolts) is bad practice, and considerably weaker than the set-up you have photographed.
The only thing I would do differently, is have both carabiners looped through both strands of webbing.
While technically this applies three directions of load on a carabiner, the reality is, it minimizes the two carabiners in close proximity to do anything wierd like jamming inside one another or loading over one another.
I would climb on what you have photgraphed..... well except for the closet door handles.
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nsutherl
Apr 14, 2010, 7:17 PM
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summerprophet wrote: Not only is this safe, this is somewhat of a standard anchoring set-up. The other method you described (looping webbing through bolts) is bad practice, and considerably weaker than the set-up you have photographed. The only thing I would do differently, is have both carabiners looped through both strands of webbing. While technically this applies three directions of load on a carabiner, the reality is, it minimizes the two carabiners in close proximity to do anything wierd like jamming inside one another or loading over one another. I would climb on what you have photgraphed..... well except for the closet door handles.
Cool man thanks for the info. Here's a pic showing the other method (triangle method) just to make sure I'm not doing something that's considered bad practice. When I said I loop the webbing through both bolts, I meant I loop the webbing through carabiners attached to the bolts.
There is only one loop of webbing in this picture, though I would normally double it up with another loop of webbing.
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scotty1974
Apr 14, 2010, 7:26 PM
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As far as the 1st pic is concerned, it looks pretty standard. I use 2 quickdraws that I setup w/ lockers on either end. If it needs more I use longer runners.
Don't know about the "triangle method", but the bottom pic just looks like a sliding X.
I'd probably say these are 2 of the most basic anchors, not really "new".
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acorneau
Apr 14, 2010, 7:26 PM
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nsutherl wrote: Cool man thanks for the info. Here's a pic showing the other method (triangle method) just to make sure I'm not doing something that's considered bad practice. When I said I loop the webbing through both bolts, I meant I loop the webbing through carabiners attached to the bolts. There is only one loop of webbing in this picture, though I would normally double it up with another loop of webbing.
That's called the "magic X" or "sliding X" and has been around for a long time.
You can reduce the potential extension by tying limiter knots about 3-5" to both sides of the master point.
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jeepnphreak
Apr 14, 2010, 7:30 PM
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Yeah man both of those method are fine for an anchor setup. And neither of those method are new.
I first heard of the sliding X over 15 years ago and the standar sling with a carabiner ojn each bolt I have been using for longer than that.
Iam still alive so far....
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nsutherl
Apr 14, 2010, 7:32 PM
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The triangle method I was talking about is just the Sliding X. That's what I've been using, I'm just getting lazy and don't like having to set it up all the time. This "New" one is only new to me, I didn't think I invented it or anything.
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shoo
Apr 14, 2010, 7:55 PM
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nsutherl wrote: The triangle method I was talking about is just the Sliding X. That's what I've been using, I'm just getting lazy and don't like having to set it up all the time. This "New" one is only new to me, I didn't think I invented it or anything.
If you're too lazy to set up a sliding x, you should really consider sticking with bouldering. . .
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olderic
Apr 14, 2010, 8:19 PM
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I like to use the American Death Triangle with frayed webbing and worn rings. Stood the test of time - ya know?
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scotty1974
Apr 14, 2010, 10:38 PM
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+1 on that...A sliding X is pretty much as simple as it gets. I'd actually be afraid to see how much more simple your anchors could be....pretty much 2 draws is all that's left.
(Been wanting to use that quote for a while shoo?? Wow....)
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Apr 14, 2010, 10:40 PM)
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nsutherl
Apr 14, 2010, 11:33 PM
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scotty1974 wrote: +1 on that...A sliding X is pretty much as simple as it gets. I'd actually be afraid to see how much more simple your anchors could be....pretty much 2 draws is all that's left.
What I have shown in my first picture is exactly that. 2 quickdraws (albeit homemade). This will be a dedicated system, and I won't have to re-route my webbing through the biners every time (simpler).
If the bolts are too far apart, the angle between the quickdraws is going to be too large and will weaken the system considerably. Also, if the bolts are up over a ledge, this system allows me to bypass on doubling up the webbing, doubling the length of the anchor and preventing the rope from dragging on the rock.
This also gives me a (relatively) light, easier (than the sliding X) and safer way to anchor at the top of lead climbs.
Thanks for all the replies. Can we close this thread now? I got my answer, and I'm sick of defending myself.
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louBlissab
Apr 15, 2010, 2:01 AM
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With the sliding X, if one of the anchor points fails, i.e. bolt, piece of gear, etc. the system will shock load the other anchor point (dangerous), unless knots are used to shorten slip length (cumbersome).
With the sliding X, as shown in the picture, the top rope system is solely relying on the one piece of webbing, which has no redundancy (risky and unsafe).
I believe the two independant pieces of webbing and biners or two quick-draws or an equalized cordelette is a better choice for TR anchors (bombproof and piece of mind), which conforms to the anchor theory of a minimum of two equalized and independant anchors.
Climb safe,
AB
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jbro_135
Apr 15, 2010, 2:29 AM
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dangerous shock loading eh? what data do you have to back this claim up? I see you have done a great deal of research on this topic
to the OP, you might want to consider "the quad". Take a 20 foot piece of 7mm cord or 5.5mm tech cord, form a doubled loop with it, shape the doubled loop into a "U" shape, tie two overhand or figure8 knots about a foot apart in the center of the U. You should end up with two loops on either end and four strands between the limiter knots. Clip the loops to your two bolts and clip two or three of the middle strands. This is by far the most bomber way to top rope off two bolts.
Refer to John Long's Climbing Anchors 2nd Edition for clarification and before attempting this.
edit: I top rope off what you posted all the time, but if for some reason you need redundancy on each independent leg of your anchor as louBlissab suggests then go with the quad rather than a cordelette that is not self-equalizing
(This post was edited by jbro_135 on Apr 15, 2010, 2:34 AM)
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johnwesely
Apr 15, 2010, 2:41 AM
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nsutherl wrote: Thanks for all the replies. Can we close this thread now? I got my answer, and I'm sick of defending myself.
And the thin skin award goes to Nsurtherl!
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JimTitt
Apr 15, 2010, 6:22 AM
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Well, if your that worried you really ought to use the top karabiners the right way up. a) The tape goes in the wide end, b) any vibration will cause the gates to screw shut not open as you have them.
Doubling tape loops is weaker than leaving them singled as the outer layer cuts the inner layer under load but since you are using knots it doesnīt really matter anyway I guess!
Are those bolts really that strong?
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jbro_135
Apr 15, 2010, 2:41 PM
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JimTitt wrote: Are those bolts really that strong?
i really hope you're joking...
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nsutherl
Apr 15, 2010, 4:30 PM
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This is why this thread needs to be closed.
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jt512
Apr 15, 2010, 4:35 PM
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nsutherl wrote: This is why this thread needs to be closed.
On the other hand, this is why this thread needs to stay open.
Jay
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bill413
Apr 15, 2010, 5:30 PM
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jbro_135 wrote: JimTitt wrote: Are those bolts really that strong? i really hope you're joking...
The bolts might be good, but it looks like it's only 1/2 inch rockwood that they're into.
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JimTitt
Apr 15, 2010, 6:07 PM
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Itīs the Ukranian death parallelagram levering on the hinges that will probably be the weak point.
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