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rtwilli4
Apr 24, 2010, 3:33 AM
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I usually don't start arguments like this but I'm just curios about what most people do. It came up in another discussion and it was said that your tie ins will wear out faster than your belay loop, depending on what you put the sling on. I always thought (and teach) that the tie ins are reinforced, specifically so that you can put nylon (rope and slings) on them without wearing them out too fast. USnavy argues that the belay loop can be rotated, keeping one area from getting stressed. This makes sense to me, and after thinking, I can see how the tie ins move every time you sit on your sling, causing more abrasion that your belay loop gets.
Usually my sling stays on my tie ins when I am doing single pitch stuff that I have to lower off or rappel. If I can walk off or am doing multi-pitch stuff, I keep just use my rope and a clove hitch to secure myself, and keep a sling or two over my shoulder to use when rapping or any other time I'd need them. In this case, i use my belay loop because it's easier.
More times than not though, I'm using my tie ins. I use my harness just about every day and the leg tie in point is wearing out. I thought this was from belaying, but maybe it's from putting my sling on the tie ins? What do you all think?
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boymeetsrock
Apr 24, 2010, 4:00 AM
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I would say either is fine. My one caveat being that slings should be removed form the harness regularly.
If I arrive at the belay and need a quick sling to clip into, I'll girth hitch the belay loop. 'Cause it easy. As long as the sling is not left permanently in place wear can be minimized and seen well before it is unsafe.
If I've planned ahead I'll go through the power-points. This way the belay loop is left free for belaying.
Edit to add: Harnesses wear out over time. As long as your paying attention and replace when needed, no harm no foul.
(This post was edited by boymeetsrock on Apr 24, 2010, 4:09 AM)
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2010, 4:16 AM
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your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG
our combat commando does not know the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters.
do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 24, 2010, 4:21 PM)
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jt512
Apr 24, 2010, 4:27 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: I usually don't start arguments like this but I'm just curios about what most people do. It came up in another discussion and it was said that your tie ins will wear out faster than your belay loop, depending on what you put the sling on. I always thought (and teach) that the tie ins are reinforced, specifically so that you can put nylon (rope and slings) on them without wearing them out too fast. USnavy argues that the belay loop can be rotated, keeping one area from getting stressed. This makes sense to me, and after thinking, I can see how the tie ins move every time you sit on your sling, causing more abrasion that your belay loop gets. Usually my sling stays on my tie ins when I am doing single pitch stuff that I have to lower off or rappel. If I can walk off or am doing multi-pitch stuff, I keep just use my rope and a clove hitch to secure myself, and keep a sling or two over my shoulder to use when rapping or any other time I'd need them. In this case, i use my belay loop because it's easier. More times than not though, I'm using my tie ins. I use my harness just about every day and the leg tie in point is wearing out. I thought this was from belaying, but maybe it's from putting my sling on the tie ins? What do you all think?
How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner.
Jay
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potreroed
Apr 24, 2010, 5:12 AM
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jt512 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: I usually don't start arguments like this but I'm just curios about what most people do. It came up in another discussion and it was said that your tie ins will wear out faster than your belay loop, depending on what you put the sling on. I always thought (and teach) that the tie ins are reinforced, specifically so that you can put nylon (rope and slings) on them without wearing them out too fast. USnavy argues that the belay loop can be rotated, keeping one area from getting stressed. This makes sense to me, and after thinking, I can see how the tie ins move every time you sit on your sling, causing more abrasion that your belay loop gets. Usually my sling stays on my tie ins when I am doing single pitch stuff that I have to lower off or rappel. If I can walk off or am doing multi-pitch stuff, I keep just use my rope and a clove hitch to secure myself, and keep a sling or two over my shoulder to use when rapping or any other time I'd need them. In this case, i use my belay loop because it's easier. More times than not though, I'm using my tie ins. I use my harness just about every day and the leg tie in point is wearing out. I thought this was from belaying, but maybe it's from putting my sling on the tie ins? What do you all think? How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay
I assume you meant locking carabiner, but no, I don't need a biner hanging on the front of my harness. I girth hitch my PAS to the belay loop.
(This post was edited by potreroed on Apr 24, 2010, 5:27 AM)
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jt512
Apr 24, 2010, 5:56 AM
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potreroed wrote: jt512 wrote: rtwilli4 wrote: I usually don't start arguments like this but I'm just curios about what most people do. It came up in another discussion and it was said that your tie ins will wear out faster than your belay loop, depending on what you put the sling on. I always thought (and teach) that the tie ins are reinforced, specifically so that you can put nylon (rope and slings) on them without wearing them out too fast. USnavy argues that the belay loop can be rotated, keeping one area from getting stressed. This makes sense to me, and after thinking, I can see how the tie ins move every time you sit on your sling, causing more abrasion that your belay loop gets. Usually my sling stays on my tie ins when I am doing single pitch stuff that I have to lower off or rappel. If I can walk off or am doing multi-pitch stuff, I keep just use my rope and a clove hitch to secure myself, and keep a sling or two over my shoulder to use when rapping or any other time I'd need them. In this case, i use my belay loop because it's easier. More times than not though, I'm using my tie ins. I use my harness just about every day and the leg tie in point is wearing out. I thought this was from belaying, but maybe it's from putting my sling on the tie ins? What do you all think? How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay I assume you meant locking carabiner, but no, I don't need a biner hanging on the front of my harness. I girth hitch my PAS to the belay loop.
As a rule, I don't need anything hanging from the front of my harness.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 24, 2010, 5:57 AM)
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shimanilami
Apr 24, 2010, 6:43 AM
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USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk.
I've thought hard about how I can add to this. Alas, I am out of my realm.
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bennydh
Apr 24, 2010, 9:24 AM
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jt512 wrote: How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay
Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness?
Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap.
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davidnn5
Apr 24, 2010, 10:36 AM
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bennydh wrote: jt512 wrote: How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness? Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap.
Quickdraws and daisy chains are not remotely comparable.
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angry
Apr 24, 2010, 12:12 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice.
This is true. To confound the problem, he's neither consistently wrong or consistently right.
Pretty much makes it impossible to tell whether he's right or wrong for a beginner. Add to that with the authority he makes his frequently incorrect claims and you've got trouble.
Hell, if I were just starting up, I'd probably think he was on the same level of advice from the real deal. He is not. He's a perfect example of why you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
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angry
Apr 24, 2010, 12:16 PM
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Ryan,
I have a Petzl Sama that I killed in about 12 months. It wore out at the tie in points. I replaced it with another Petzl Sama (awesome harness). To prevent the wear, I cannibalized a Mammut harness with the little plastic tie in protector thing. The new harness has been used about 120 days and still looks brand new.
I'll transfer that little plastic thingy from one harness to another now that I've got it. Too bad only Mammut harnesses come with it.
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 12:53 PM
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angry wrote: majid_sabet wrote: your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice. This is true. To confound the problem, he's neither consistently wrong or consistently right. Pretty much makes it impossible to tell whether he's right or wrong for a beginner. Add to that with the authority he makes his frequently incorrect claims and you've got trouble. Hell, if I were just starting up, I'd probably think he was on the same level of advice from the real deal. He is not. He's a perfect example of why you don't believe everything you read on the internet.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 12:55 PM)
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ebag17
Apr 24, 2010, 3:20 PM
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Is it unusual for your harness manufacture to recommend against girth hitching slings to your belay loop? Or is that just something they do to protect themselves if something goes wrong and everyone does it anyways?
-G
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2010, 4:19 PM
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USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk. Anyway this is what happened to my harness in nine months from attaching my slings to my tie in points: [img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4548/1000559q.jpg[/img] As you can see the reinforcement webbing has been completely destroyed on the bottom. Right now I am a year into having them attached to my belay loop and my belay loop still looks new. I have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop.
I have the right to criticize anyone or any qualified person and believe or not, I even criticized John Long for some of his BS on his anchor book, right here in RC.
Alright big boy, go get that drill and some of the home-depot SS bolt and get busy.
move it move it move it
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 4:35 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk. Anyway this is what happened to my harness in nine months from attaching my slings to my tie in points: [img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4548/1000559q.jpg[/img] As you can see the reinforcement webbing has been completely destroyed on the bottom. Right now I am a year into having them attached to my belay loop and my belay loop still looks new. I have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop. I have the right to criticize anyone or any qualified person and believe or not, I even criticized John Long for some of his BS on his anchor book, right here in RC. Alright big boy, go get that drill and some of the home-depot SS bolt and get busy. move it move it move it
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 24, 2010, 4:43 PM)
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2010, 4:51 PM
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USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk. Anyway this is what happened to my harness in nine months from attaching my slings to my tie in points: [img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4548/1000559q.jpg[/img] As you can see the reinforcement webbing has been completely destroyed on the bottom. Right now I am a year into having them attached to my belay loop and my belay loop still looks new. I have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop. I have the right to criticize anyone or any qualified person and believe or not, I even criticized John Long for some of his BS on his anchor book, right here in RC. Alright big boy, go get that drill and some of the home-depot SS bolt and get busy. move it move it move it We use custom cut titanium alloy stable bolts that are 40 kN test and more corrosion resistant then grade 317L or 2205 stainless steel. The last time I checked you were the one ghetto rigging your lines with substandard zinc plated stud bolts. That actually brings me to another question. Why do you bother bolting when you don't actually lead anything? Keep talking out of your ass, it brings my day some much needed laughter.
they call me MAJIDOIT not because i am an idiot. MAJIDOIT means MAJID + the IDIOT
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USnavy
Apr 24, 2010, 5:37 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: USnavy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: our combat commando does not the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters. Majidoit please, you are in no position to criticize the qualifications of anyone on this forum. Go back to top roping your 5.9's and let the big boys talk. Anyway this is what happened to my harness in nine months from attaching my slings to my tie in points: [img]http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/4548/1000559q.jpg[/img] As you can see the reinforcement webbing has been completely destroyed on the bottom. Right now I am a year into having them attached to my belay loop and my belay loop still looks new. I have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop. I have the right to criticize anyone or any qualified person and believe or not, I even criticized John Long for some of his BS on his anchor book, right here in RC. Alright big boy, go get that drill and some of the home-depot SS bolt and get busy. move it move it move it We use custom cut titanium alloy stable bolts that are 40 kN test and more corrosion resistant then grade 317L or 2205 stainless steel. The last time I checked you were the one ghetto rigging your lines with substandard zinc plated stud bolts. That actually brings me to another question. Why do you bother bolting when you don't actually lead anything? Keep talking out of your ass, it brings my day some much needed laughter. they call me MAJIDOIT not because i am an idiot. MAJIDOIT means MAJID + the IDIOT
Is this you?: http://www.facebook.com/...657937011&ref=ts
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bennydh
Apr 24, 2010, 9:09 PM
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davidnn5 wrote: bennydh wrote: jt512 wrote: How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness? Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap. Quickdraws and daisy chains are not remotely comparable.
You're right, one is useful and practical, the other isn't. The arguments for people carrying either a PAS, or a daisy seem to come down to a couple inches of flexibility whilst fucking around at an anchor. If an inch or two throws off anyone's ability to safely thread an anchor, they shouldn't be threading anything. If its a comfort issue, then they ought to watch climbing videos at home, on the couch, in a bathrobe.
Draws/extendables work perfectly and aren't an accessory anyone has to buy or carry. They work just as well for single pitch, and multipitch where the rope easily serves the purpose of anchor building and personal anchor.
...but then again you all are entitled to drag your tires, and accessory cords, daisys and equalettes, and just about whatever else you'd like to make a climbing anchor comfy, or easier than already easy to setup.
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j_ung
Apr 24, 2010, 9:26 PM
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bennydh wrote: davidnn5 wrote: bennydh wrote: jt512 wrote: How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness? Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap. Quickdraws and daisy chains are not remotely comparable. You're right, one is useful and practical, the other isn't. The arguments for people carrying either a PAS, or a daisy seem to come down to a couple inches of flexibility whilst fucking around at an anchor. If an inch or two throws off anyone's ability to safely thread an anchor, they shouldn't be threading anything. If its a comfort issue, then they ought to watch climbing videos at home, on the couch, in a bathrobe. Draws/extendables work perfectly and aren't an accessory anyone has to buy or carry. They work just as well for single pitch, and multipitch where the rope easily serves the purpose of anchor building and personal anchor. ...but then again you all are entitled to drag your tires, and accessory cords, daisys and equalettes, and just about whatever else you'd like to make a climbing anchor comfy, or easier than already easy to setup.
It's a little disproportionately peeved for the subject, but yeah, I agree.
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bennydh
Apr 24, 2010, 9:45 PM
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j_ung wrote: bennydh wrote: davidnn5 wrote: bennydh wrote: jt512 wrote: How about just clipping your sling into your harness with a carabiner. Jay Jay? You mean sort of like a quick draw? Or even an extendable quick draw that may already be attached to one's climbing harness? Please don't be so sensible. You may just hurt the sales of all those extra shoulder length slings for girth hitching, PASs, daisy chains, and all that other accessory crap. Quickdraws and daisy chains are not remotely comparable. You're right, one is useful and practical, the other isn't. The arguments for people carrying either a PAS, or a daisy seem to come down to a couple inches of flexibility whilst fucking around at an anchor. If an inch or two throws off anyone's ability to safely thread an anchor, they shouldn't be threading anything. If its a comfort issue, then they ought to watch climbing videos at home, on the couch, in a bathrobe. Draws/extendables work perfectly and aren't an accessory anyone has to buy or carry. They work just as well for single pitch, and multipitch where the rope easily serves the purpose of anchor building and personal anchor. ...but then again you all are entitled to drag your tires, and accessory cords, daisys and equalettes, and just about whatever else you'd like to make a climbing anchor comfy, or easier than already easy to setup. It's a little disproportionately peeved for the subject, but yeah, I agree.
Disproportionate, I know... but if I take it 10 steps in one direction, and I have to concede a point an take a step or two back, I am often still a few steps ahead. 
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potreroed
Apr 25, 2010, 3:03 AM
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I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 25, 2010, 2:22 PM
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USnavy wrote:  ... have two PAS's, one attached to each belay loop.
It does look like you have some wear on that section, but I can't tell from the photo what is actually going on.
TWO PAS's? TWO belay loops? I know some of the manufacturers made the double belay loop after Skinner bit the dust(RIP) when his belay loop busted through from overuse(overuse to the extreme that I doubt ANYONE who has time to post regularly to this website could ever come near achieving). It was a manufacturers marketing reaction to an unfortunate, but very widely publicized, event in our community. People actually ditched their perfectly good harnesses to buy the double loop. Well, it was good for the outdoor rec economy, I suppose.
Personally, I would never buy a harness with the double belay loop, and I'd be embarrassed to be seen wearing one.
But TWO PAS'S? For everyday free climbing? Not only would I be embarrassed to be seen in such get-up, I'd be embarrassed to be seen belaying someone that dogmatic about *safety.*
But....that's just me.
I do have the PAS, and though I've considered ditching it and just going with rope or a sling tie-in, it still has a lot of life on it. I don't think I would pay, what is it now - $30?, for a new one. The PAS was suggested to be(by a self-professed safety nazi) when I was a brand new newb. I admit that I sort of like being able to have the options of lengths, when anchored in at a little ledge.
- I girth hitch it to the top tie-in only.
- I check it, and harness point, every so often to see the wear. So far, not any, really, after 5 years use on multipitch and rap anchor clip-in use.
Someone once freaked out that I had only one point hitched, insisting I was gonna die. I agreed - I would, someday die. After all - nobody gets out alive. But it would be extremely unlikely to be from gear failure.
Still, I obediantly switched it out to do both tie-in points, and every damned time I put the harness on with that set up, found myself annoyed trying to thread the rope tie-in(especially with doubles), and also a vague annoyance due to the harness feeling off balance with the bunched up lower tie-point. I switched back to one tie point the next time I checked for wear.
You know what I think is WAY more important than how one clips themselves in? Keeping hydrated, energy level in balance through nutrition, and wearing adequate clothing. I bet a LOT more people die from fucking up their anchor/rap set up because they were bonking, dehydrated or in hypothermia mode, than all the one's(RIP Skinner, and in no way discounting the tragic loss to his family and friends) whose harness or tie-in cling broke due to wear.
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johnwesely
Apr 25, 2010, 2:30 PM
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Happie,
The double loops are for keeping things tidy while aid climbing, not redundancy.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 25, 2010, 3:07 PM
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Aid climbing, I know not much about. So if that's the case - that's the case, though I wonder what the dudes did BITD before harnesses came into being. I guess the Whillans Sit Harness had something going for it that kept the mind off any worry about tidiness on the belay loop.... And:
I just recall when the "redundant belay loop" concept came out, all the discussion here on forums. And seeing people who immediately went out and bought nice red webbing and water-knotted a second belay loop to their (barely used) harnesses.
And....with a small bit of detective work(ie; cyber-stalking) a look at USNavy's ascents log - though it does show his most recent climb as being A0, also shows about 20 climbs not listed as aid. I'm lazy and didn't look further - maybe those are all FA's that he put up via aiding through, and so he primarily aids long routes. But that wasn't the gist I got from the reply to the OP that was made.
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