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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 9:41 PM
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I've been using a GriGri for the past two years or so and had always heard rumors about the Cinch. They were almost always negative (people with little or no experience with one), but every once in a while I'd hear one that was from an actual user and those people said they'd never go back.
Well I just recently got my girlfriend climbing and pretty much threw her into the fire as far as belaying and cleaning and making sure I didn't die. I started her on an ATC to make sure she understood the basics but switched her over to a GriGri after about a month of belaying me with an ATC.
She hated it. It was hard to feed rope for her (even using multiple techniques) and she always had a hard time getting it unstuck if it locked up when I pulled rope fast or something. So I finally found the reason I was looking for to buy a Cinch. I'd heard that Trango had redesigned it to make it easier to handle and I stopped into Waterstone in Fayetteville last week to pick one up on my way out to the New.
I got the Cinch and quickly learned how to work it and taught my girlfriend how to work it. After a couple easy pitches to make sure she had it down we started the harder stuff. She loves it. It feeds like a dream, locks up tight, lowers easy once you figure out the correct technique, and is just easier to use to her.
I started using it to belay too (since I really bought it for me.) After figuring out a few quirks (like how to unlock it fast if it locks up) I fell in love.
Just for shits and giggles I decided to see how well it fed by letting my climber pull his own slack when he clipped a bolt the other day. He said it was like I had pulled out an armload for him. All the while I had safe control over the device and was still holding the brake side of the rope, ready to go if something happened.
Getting off the GriGri is like getting off of cocaine. It's hard to part with at first, but once you finally come clean it's a whole hell of a lot better life.
edit: title typo
(This post was edited by currupt4130 on May 11, 2010, 10:07 PM)
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jakedatc
May 11, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Yep, luckily i never used a gri gri for lead belaying so i didn't have to break any habits. but the Cinch is much more intuitive i think and easier to use. not to mention it is about half the size to hold and lighter.
hell i use it for trad lead and bringing up 2nd now and my reverso is pretty much demoted to rap only
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edge
May 11, 2010, 10:30 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Yep, luckily i never used a gri gri for lead belaying so i didn't have to break any habits. but the Cinch is much more intuitive i think and easier to use. not to mention it is about half the size to hold and lighter. hell i use it for trad lead and bringing up 2nd now and my reverso is pretty much demoted to rap only
Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you.
It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad.
Jus' sayin'
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 10:33 PM
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edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin'
Care to elaborate?
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lena_chita
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May 11, 2010, 10:39 PM
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My husband converted from Gri-gri to a Cinch and likes it better.
I have experimented with a Cinch enough to know how to belay with it (and yes, it is very comfortable) but I am not switching yet.
Couple reasons for that. One is convenience-- this way he has his device, and i have mine, and we don't have to dig through each other's packs every time we go climbing on our own.
The other reason is that gri-gri is a more prevalent device, many people have not tried Cinch and are not comfortable with someone belaying them on the device they are not familiar with. And I do like to have the extra level of safety where my climbing partner can tell at a glance whether my device is threaded/loaded correctly, which is more likely if the device I am using is the device my climber is familiar with.
I don't exclude the possibility that down the line, when my gri-gri wears out or otherwise becomes unavailable, I might switch to a Cinch.
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shockabuku
May 11, 2010, 10:42 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: ... switched her over to a GriGri after about a month of belaying me with an ATC. I got the Cinch and quickly learned how to work it and taught my girlfriend how to work it.
Did you spend as much time teaching her how to use the Grigri as the Cinch?
Are you equally proficient with both?
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 10:49 PM
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I probably had to spend less time teaching her how to use a Cinch than I did a GriGri. And yes, I'm proficient with both.
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edge
May 11, 2010, 10:50 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate?
Sure.
Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics.
I don't like that.
For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you.
I don't like that either.
I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user.
And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods.
And I know Jake can...
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edge
May 11, 2010, 10:51 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: I probably had to spend less time teaching her how to use a Cinch than I did a GriGri. And yes, I'm proficient with both.
Priceless.
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 10:51 PM
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lena_chita wrote: The other reason is that gri-gri is a more prevalent device, many people have not tried Cinch and are not comfortable with someone belaying them on the device they are not familiar with. And I do like to have the extra level of safety where my climbing partner can tell at a glance whether my device is threaded/loaded correctly, which is more likely if the device I am using is the device my climber is familiar with.
Really? All it takes is a quick yank with either device to tell if it's loaded correctly, something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order.
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 10:59 PM
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edge wrote: currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate? Sure. Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics. I don't like that. For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you. I don't like that either. I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user. And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods. And I know Jake can...
I don't pretend to know everything, but climbing multipitch and rapping on a single line isn't that hard. A tag line and a large biner on a clove to block the anchors isn't exactly that hard of a concept.
And I don't understand your point about managing rope to prevent a ground fall. If I can keep you off the ground with a locking assist device or a tube device, why does it matter which I use?
Please don't take me for someone dependent on these devices, I choose to use them when I'm cragging for their ease and convenience, especially when sport cragging with someone who dogs all over the route.
FWIW, I know how to Munter (and Monster Munter for that matter) and know how to use a biner brake to rap.
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shimanilami
May 11, 2010, 10:59 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: ...something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order.
If you did that to me, I'd return the favor ...
... some point after your first clip.
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 11:06 PM
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shimanilami wrote: currupt4130 wrote: ...something I almost always do to my belayer before I leave the ground. I try and snatch some rope when they aren't looking before I start climbing to make sure I catch them off guard and check if everything is in order. If you did that to me, I'd return the favor ... ... some point after your first clip.
Because shorting your climber is equivalent to them checking to make sure the device is threaded correctly... Right. You sound like a real safe guy to climb with.
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edge
May 11, 2010, 11:07 PM
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currupt4130 wrote: FWIW, I know how to Munter (and Monster Munter for that matter) and know how to use a biner brake to rap.
Book smarts?
Have you used these in the field, or just read about them?
I think if you are experienced enough to have known and used these techniques enough to be comfortable with them, then I firmly believe that you would prefer another device than the Cinch.
Unless you started in a gym, and cannot give up your gym roots; they do not translate to the great outdoors...
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strickrock
May 11, 2010, 11:11 PM
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I like the cinch. I bought one because my wife wanted an auto locking device to belay me while I lead in the gym. However, I recently lead a route outside (my first lead outside). It worked well going up. Then on the descent there was a problem. The rope began twisting badly and jammed the device. She got me down but it was pretty difficult. I don't know if it was the device or the rope which has been used for multiple climbs outside and inside. As of right now I am kind of unsure about the cinch.
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currupt4130
May 11, 2010, 11:13 PM
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I've played with them enough to know them but have never had to use them. I didn't start in a gym. I started outside, and have been leading since the second day I tied in. Please don't confuse me for some gym rat turned sport climber. It's my hobby to turn sport climbers into gear junkies. Speaking of, why is this in Sport Climbing now?
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strickrock
May 11, 2010, 11:28 PM
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Yeah, the cinch does have symbols for the break hand and climber on the inside as well as the outside so u can tell whether it is threaded properly, even a gym rat turned sport climber knows that.
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jakedatc
May 11, 2010, 11:33 PM
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edge wrote: currupt4130 wrote: edge wrote: Jake, if you use the Cinch for trad, then even I will not climb trad with you. It is a sports climbers device for sport climbers, plain and simple. There are dozens of more weight efficient/multi-use devices out there. The Cinch and Gri Gri invite square peg-in-a-round-hole thinking when it comes to trad. Jus' sayin' Care to elaborate? Sure. Trad for me involves multi-pitch. You can't bail off of a double strand with a Cinch without unnecessary tomfoolery involving single strand antics. I don't like that. For me, personally, it also involves being able to manage the rope to avoid groundfall. The Cinch wants to manage the rope for you. I don't like that either. I would rather have someone use a Muntner or carabiner brake to rap, and show proficiency in a hip belay, then trust a dedicated Gri Gri or Cinch user. And for what it's worth, I have climbed with Jake numerous times, but will not climb multi-pitch trad with anyone who cannot perform the above mentioned methods. And I know Jake can...
Loran I bring both Cinch and Reverso. the extra weight of the reverso for rapping and using in certain spots is negligible and i'm ok with that. Cinch is easier to release to give a 2nd slack than a reverso.
not sure how a cinch vs tube device would be any different keeping someone off the deck. i can pull in slack with the cinch at least as fast as a tube device..
i don't know what you mean that the cinch manages the rope for me.. it is a piece of metal. i pull in slack and throw out slack exactly how you would with a tube device in a palm down technique except better since the brake hand for Cinch is always in a locked off position
i've caught a 25 footer on bolts with the Cinch and had no problems. caught a bunch of expected and unexpected falls of various other lengths as well. none on trad yet since folks i climb trad with tend not to tank on gear if they can help it
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jakedatc
May 11, 2010, 11:35 PM
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strickrock wrote: I like the cinch. I bought one because my wife wanted an auto locking device to belay me while I lead in the gym. However, I recently lead a route outside (my first lead outside). It worked well going up. Then on the descent there was a problem. The rope began twisting badly and jammed the device. She got me down but it was pretty difficult. I don't know if it was the device or the rope which has been used for multiple climbs outside and inside. As of right now I am kind of unsure about the cinch.
sounds like you had your rope through the anchor wrong and the rope twisted from that. the Cinch is a straight line from brake to climber so there is no way of the rope twisting ( unlike the gri gri which you can curve the rope over it many different ways)
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silascl
May 11, 2010, 11:49 PM
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jakedatc wrote: strickrock wrote: I like the cinch. I bought one because my wife wanted an auto locking device to belay me while I lead in the gym. However, I recently lead a route outside (my first lead outside). It worked well going up. Then on the descent there was a problem. The rope began twisting badly and jammed the device. She got me down but it was pretty difficult. I don't know if it was the device or the rope which has been used for multiple climbs outside and inside. As of right now I am kind of unsure about the cinch. sounds like you had your rope through the anchor wrong and the rope twisted from that. the Cinch is a straight line from brake to climber so there is no way of the rope twisting ( unlike the gri gri which you can curve the rope over it many different ways)
I've found the cinch will work out the kinks in a funky rope pretty quickly, which can give it a bad rep for twisting the rope. In reality the straight tight spot the rope goes through when lowering is just concentrating the kinks in that end of the rope more than using an ATC would.
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jakedatc
May 11, 2010, 11:59 PM
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silascl wrote: jakedatc wrote: strickrock wrote: I like the cinch. I bought one because my wife wanted an auto locking device to belay me while I lead in the gym. However, I recently lead a route outside (my first lead outside). It worked well going up. Then on the descent there was a problem. The rope began twisting badly and jammed the device. She got me down but it was pretty difficult. I don't know if it was the device or the rope which has been used for multiple climbs outside and inside. As of right now I am kind of unsure about the cinch. sounds like you had your rope through the anchor wrong and the rope twisted from that. the Cinch is a straight line from brake to climber so there is no way of the rope twisting ( unlike the gri gri which you can curve the rope over it many different ways) I've found the cinch will work out the kinks in a funky rope pretty quickly, which can give it a bad rep for twisting the rope. In reality the straight tight spot the rope goes through when lowering is just concentrating the kinks in that end of the rope more than using an ATC would.
yea.. but if there weren't kinks in it before then threading the anchor incorrectly will cause your rope to twist and any belay device will cause it to knot up at the bottom end.
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jakedatc
May 12, 2010, 1:00 AM
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Also i don't know why this is in the sport forum. Cinch is a device to be talked about in Gear the discussion isnt about it's use in sport climbing.
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vegastradguy
May 12, 2010, 2:48 AM
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edge wrote: I think if you are experienced enough to have known and used these techniques enough to be comfortable with them, then I firmly believe that you would prefer another device than the Cinch. Unless you started in a gym, and cannot give up your gym roots; they do not translate to the great outdoors...
sorry to be the voice of dissent, edge, but i'm a dedicated cinch user for sport and trad, multipitch included. well, let me caveat that by saying its my primary device for belaying. not my only device, as every situation is different.
i'm more than versed in all the techniques you listed and more and have used just about every belay device out there and my preferred device for just about everything (rope soloing is the exception) is the Cinch- its just a really nice device that is easy to control and feeds rope better than anything else on the market. i should say i dont use it because its locking assist, though- its really more for the feed than anything else.
fwiw, i carry an atc-guide for raps, as i dont like the single line tomfoolery necessary with a cinch.
also- dude, munter hitch raps? pass.
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robdotcalm
May 12, 2010, 3:29 AM
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I know I’ve read it on this site, but didn’t come up with anything on a search. Namely, that auto-locking devices such as the Grigri generate more force in a fall than tube devices which allow for some slippage of the rope. This makes them unsuitable for climbs in which trad gear is used. This is a quote from the Petzl web site supporting that. They say quite specifically don’t use the Grigri for trad (adventure) climbing.
«Belay device for 10 to 11 mm (9.7 mm is acceptable) CE (EN 892)
and/or UIAA certified dynamic single ropes (core + sheath).
The GRIGRI is designed for indoor wall climbing or for rock climbing
on well-protected routes where anchors meet the EN/UIAA standard
(25 kN). It can be used to belay and lower a leader or a second.
It should not be used for mountaineering or adventure climbing»
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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currupt4130
May 12, 2010, 3:44 AM
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jakedatc wrote: Loran I bring both Cinch and Reverso. the extra weight of the reverso for rapping and using in certain spots is negligible and i'm ok with that. Cinch is easier to release to give a 2nd slack than a reverso.
I'm in this club. I bring a tube style device with me to rap with. If I had to rap on a Cinch I know how to, doesn't mean I want to.
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