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Rudmin
May 13, 2010, 2:21 PM
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Okay, first off, I know that daisies are not intended for personal anchors. But I also know that a lot of people use them for leashing themselves to an anchor anyways.
I hear that the reason that you shouldn't use a daisy is because those stitches are not rated to a very high strength.
What I was wondering is what happens if you are clipped in to just one loop and fall on it hard enough to rip out the stitches. Would the daisy act like a screamer and lessen the fall as the stitches ripped out until one of the stitches holds or you are caught by the final loop? Or would the extra distance you are falling with each pocket add more energy and increase the force when you are caught by the final loop?
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bill413
May 13, 2010, 2:27 PM
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Rudmin wrote: Okay, first off, I know that daisies are not intended for personal anchors. But I also know that a lot of people use them for leashing themselves to an anchor anyways. I hear that the reason that you shouldn't use a daisy is because those stitches are not rated to a very high strength. What I was wondering is what happens if you are clipped in to just one loop and fall on it hard enough to rip out the stitches. Would the daisy act like a screamer and lessen the fall as the stitches ripped out until one of the stitches holds or you are caught by the final loop? Or would the extra distance you are falling with each pocket add more energy and increase the force when you are caught by the final loop?
The strength of the whole thing is compromised by those pockets blowing - there tends to be damage to the nylon loop, not just the stitching.
If you want a screamer, get a screamer.
People use daisies because they don't understand the properties of what they are using.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
May 13, 2010, 2:32 PM
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99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security.
Just my 2 bits.
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johnwesely
May 13, 2010, 3:08 PM
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Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: 99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security. Just my 2 bits.
What kind of crack are you smoking?
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bill413
May 13, 2010, 3:12 PM
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So, let's see.
BD Daisy Chain: Overall Strength 16kN; Pocket Strength 3kN.
From the Wild Country website: In reply to: It is especially important to note that the Daisy Chain is specifically an aid climbing tool and is designed for static loads only. The pocket strength of the Daisy Chain is very low because of this - only 2kn - therefore it is essential to note: A. Daisy Chains should never be used as a belay equalisation tool by the use of the pockets. A shock load could easily ‘pop’ a pocket leading to a chain reaction of critical loading. B. Daisy Chains should never be used as a sling unless it is between the two end pockets only.
Now, this shows some interesting results:
ITRS: Mike Gibbs; Daisy Chains and Other Lanyards wrote: All of the drop tests conducted included a free fall of the test mass. This was done in order to simulate a climber or rescuer falling from a stance in which they had some slack in their primary lanyard attachment. Scenarios could include a climber standing up to adjust some rigging while at a belay station In reply to: PAS, fall factor 1.25: Failure Spectra Daisy Chain, fall factor 0.5: Failure Nylon Daisy Chain, fall factor 2: Catch; MAF 19.9kN
And, this from Climber magazine
In reply to: To simulate this configuration the CAMP laboratory used a CAMP Dyneema daisy chain and a CAMP Cream Ale harness with a free fall tower and 80kg dummy (Photo 8). The goal was to test a fall factor two at a height of 70cm above the anchor. The theoretical drop height is 70 + 70 = 140cm. But because all pockets on the daisy chain break, the real drop height is 190cm (Photo 9). The maximum registered strength is 4.73 kN. When clipped to an anchor with a daisy, you must never climb above the anchor.
Since I might have to climb above my anchor's master point in many situations, it just doesn't seem worth the risk to use a daisy.
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 13, 2010, 4:52 PM)
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Rudmin
May 13, 2010, 3:30 PM
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Cool info. It's worth noting that the Climber Magazine test of 4.73 kN was for ripping the pocket stitches. The end of the Daisy chain still caught and held.
You need to add a colon to the url to get it to work.
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potreroed
May 13, 2010, 3:32 PM
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johnwesely wrote: Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: 99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security. Just my 2 bits. What kind of crack are you smoking?
He said relatively cheap--it's all relative. Sounds to me like you're the cheap one around here.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
May 13, 2010, 3:48 PM
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potreroed wrote: johnwesely wrote: Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: 99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security. Just my 2 bits. What kind of crack are you smoking? He said relatively cheap--it's all relative. Sounds to me like you're the cheap one around here.
No kidding! You can get a PAS for under $30. Mine gets used all the time - every multipitch climb. So, comparing a $30 piece of equipment which offers great safety and versatile use to the $100 #5 BD cam you see hanging off someone's gear rack that gets placed only on big off width climbs, I'd say that is a relatively cheap investment.
I'm not saying a $8 sling or even $1.50 worth of tied webbing can't be a decent substitute for a PAS, but come on, man. $30 isn't going to break the bank for too many people.
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johnwesely
May 13, 2010, 3:50 PM
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potreroed wrote: johnwesely wrote: Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: 99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security. Just my 2 bits. What kind of crack are you smoking? He said relatively cheap--it's all relative. Sounds to me like you're the cheap one around here.
Relatively cheap means cheap relative to the other options. Unless their is a gold plated PAS lying around somewhere, I am pretty sure that the PAS is the most expensive option outside of a Via Ferreta rig. That makes it relatively expensive. Also, I am cheap.
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rgold
May 13, 2010, 4:09 PM
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The reason not to use any kind of high-strength low-elongation sling material for anchor connections for a belayer is because they transmit higher loads to the belay anchor. The climbing rope is a much better (not to mention more versatile) load transmitter. Given the speed and superior adjustability of clove-hitching in with the rope, it just doesn't make any sense to delegate load transmission to materials that will increase the load.
Personally, I find a number of uses for an installed tether on the harness, but I never set things up so that it takes the potential load for belaying. That's the climbing rope's job.
When connecting to anchors when the climbing rope is not available, tethers such as the nylon Sterling Chain Reactor are useful. Why anyone would use the Metolius PAS, which breaks under a factor-2 fall, when an equivalent item is available that does not break and costs less, is a total mystery to me.
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socalclimber
May 13, 2010, 4:40 PM
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Bill and rgold hit it spot on. There are better ways to anchor yourself.
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hosh
May 13, 2010, 5:36 PM
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Dental floss. Cheap, strong, light, easy to cary, and promotes good dental hygene. It's strong too!
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socalclimber
May 13, 2010, 6:20 PM
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petsfed
May 13, 2010, 6:46 PM
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Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: No kidding! You can get a PAS for under $30. Mine gets used all the time - every multipitch climb. So, comparing a $30 piece of equipment which offers great safety and versatile use to the $100 #5 BD cam you see hanging off someone's gear rack that gets placed only on big off width climbs, I'd say that is a relatively cheap investment.
I certainly use my #5 a lot more than I use my daisy chain. In fact, typically, the daisy chain only gets used where there are bolted anchors and I have to untie for some reason.
Of course, I also climb a lot of offwidths.
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chadnsc
May 13, 2010, 7:30 PM
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I'm with rgold on this one; use the rope to anchor yourself into the anchor.
That being said I do use a PAS but only when preparing to rappel from an anchor.
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meanandugly
May 13, 2010, 8:01 PM
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I use a daisy chain and will continue to use them. If uesd properly then there is no problem. I forked over a bit of money and got few different types of daisy chains and did some of my own drop test...I was unable to blow the pockets on any of them.
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norm1057
May 13, 2010, 8:31 PM
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Agreeed! Otherwise, the climbing rope is right there!
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meanandugly
May 13, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Very true.
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chadnsc
May 13, 2010, 8:41 PM
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meanandugly wrote: I use a daisy chain and will continue to use them. If uesd properly then there is no problem. I forked over a bit of money and got few different types of daisy chains and did some of my own drop test...I was unable to blow the pockets on any of them.
Really? I dropped 160 pounds off a 48" BD daisy (weight 4' above anchor point, 8'-0" total fall height) and was able to blow a loop. I clipped the weight across a bar tack of the daisy chain (worst case f-up situation) and well, it blew out quite easily.
I’m not discounting your testing I’m just a bit curious how you tested your daisys’.
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meanandugly
May 13, 2010, 8:52 PM
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I used myself as the weight and took multipe short falls from above my anchor (mind you I was only a few feet from the padded floor. Fyi, I am 195lbs on a skinny day.
One thing I have notice when testing is when one uses themselves as the weight (not only do you get hurt) but the human body has some of its own dynamic properties and hence may affect the results. However, I will be the on falling on it, not some static weight.
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chadnsc
May 13, 2010, 9:05 PM
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During your drop tests with yourself and the daisy chain where you and your tie in point above or below the anchor point?
Also when you say 'short falls' what distances are you talking about? Less than four feet, three fee?
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majid_sabet
May 13, 2010, 9:53 PM
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Rudmin wrote: Okay, first off, I know that daisies are not intended for personal anchors. But I also know that a lot of people use them for leashing themselves to an anchor anyways. I hear that the reason that you shouldn't use a daisy is because those stitches are not rated to a very high strength. What I was wondering is what happens if you are clipped in to just one loop and fall on it hard enough to rip out the stitches . Would the daisy act like a screamer and lessen the fall as the stitches ripped out until one of the stitches holds or you are caught by the final loop? Or would the extra distance you are falling with each pocket add more energy and increase the force when you are caught by the final loop?
you been smoking some good ganga
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majid_sabet
May 13, 2010, 9:57 PM
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meanandugly wrote: I use a daisy chain and will continue to use them. If uesd properly then there is no problem. I forked over a bit of money and got few different types of daisy chains and did some of my own drop test...I was unable to blow the pockets on any of them.
you must drop 175 lbs from 1.5 meter to simulate FF2 and I grantee you based on what I have seen ( have photos). most daisy @ FF 1.25 will break apart except old school 1" daisy (used by some rescuers ) and Purcell prusik . All others will fail.
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meanandugly
May 14, 2010, 2:16 AM
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3' was the max and that was too much for me to handle so I kept them to 2' or less. That was the total distance and I did fall from above the anchor.
But I never put myself in a (real life) situation where this will happen.
The dynamic properties of the human body is a factor not often calculated in drop test. This was once done on human cadavers, but almost all of the bodies used were of elderly frail individuals, which would tend to affect the results. I am not advocating to doing tests on yourself or other individuals, but it is something to consider. Static drops with a static weights is only part of the equation in figuring out the strength of the equipment used and the forces generated.
Enough of that, its a daisy chain and has its place if you choose to use it. And, as with all equipment, use it for something other than its intended purpose you will possible suffer more than you wish.
(This post was edited by meanandugly on May 14, 2010, 2:30 AM)
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TarHeelEMT
May 16, 2010, 5:05 PM
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johnwesely wrote: potreroed wrote: johnwesely wrote: Crack_Addict_Ty wrote: 99.99999% of the time, a daisy chain is going to be just fine for using as a personal anchor. The stitching on the loops are plenty strong to hold body weight. Now, that said, I have a Metolious PAS on my harness because I am paranoid and the PAS is a relatively cheap piece of equipment that offers a whole lotta security. Just my 2 bits. What kind of crack are you smoking? He said relatively cheap--it's all relative. Sounds to me like you're the cheap one around here. Relatively cheap means cheap relative to the other options. Unless their is a gold plated PAS lying around somewhere, I am pretty sure that the PAS is the most expensive option outside of a Via Ferreta rig. That makes it relatively expensive. Also, I am cheap.
Tying in with the climbing rope = free
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