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acorneau
May 13, 2010, 8:53 PM
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I was just looking at some gear on a website (big surprise, huh?) and saw perhaps the weirdest justification for having their pre-made draws with gates facing in opposite directions:
In reply to: We orient our carabiners on all our standard quickdraws with the gates facing opposite each other. We feel that this is the safest method to minimize the possibility of simultaneously loading both carabiners in a gate-open position while leading routes which may wander above and to the left or right of your last placement. Under certain circumstances, it is possible for both gates to open during a fall as the ‘draw is scraped along the rock while it orients iteself below the point of protection. By opposing the carabiners on a draw, we reduce the possibility of simultaneous gate-opening in this manner. One open gate versus two... who really cares? It's kind of the "weakest link in the chain" situation. Even if one biner breaks because it loaded with an open gate or it comes off the rope/hanger, it's still no longer a valid protection point. Anyone else ever heard this kind of justification for opposite-facing gates on quickdraws before?
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bill413
May 13, 2010, 9:34 PM
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Well, you have to come up with some justification to say one way is always better than the other.
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hafilax
May 13, 2010, 9:36 PM
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I think that any argument about the relative gate orientation on a quickdraw is specious.
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trenchdigger
May 13, 2010, 11:20 PM
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acorneau wrote: I was just looking at some gear on a website (big surprise, huh?) and saw perhaps the weirdest justification for having their pre-made draws with gates facing in opposite directions: In reply to: We orient our carabiners on all our standard quickdraws with the gates facing opposite each other. We feel that this is the safest method to minimize the possibility of simultaneously loading both carabiners in a gate-open position while leading routes which may wander above and to the left or right of your last placement. Under certain circumstances, it is possible for both gates to open during a fall as the ‘draw is scraped along the rock while it orients iteself below the point of protection. By opposing the carabiners on a draw, we reduce the possibility of simultaneous gate-opening in this manner. One open gate versus two... who really cares? It's kind of the "weakest link in the chain" situation. Even if one biner breaks because it loaded with an open gate or it comes off the rope/hanger, it's still no longer a valid protection point. Anyone else ever heard this kind of justification for opposite-facing gates on quickdraws before? You could use the same stupid argument to say that with gates in opposite directions, you'll have one gate open up every time the draw scrapes the rock in a fall. If the gates were facing the same direction, you'd have no chance of that happening at least part of the time. Then again, if that was your biggest concern, you'd want to clip the gates facing the direction you will be climbing to the next bolt rather than the usual method of clipping with the gate facing the other direction to reduce the likelyhood of some 'biners getting their notch caught on the bolt hanger.
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oldsalt
May 14, 2010, 12:21 AM
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I have a good reason for op. facing gates... Upper biner gate faces bolt from left hand or right, leaving lower gate in opposite orientation facing my left hand or right as it brings the rope to the gate. Easier to do than say. C is rt facing gate, D is lft facing gate .....bolt...........bolt ...C [] ............ [] D ...|| ................. || ...|| ..<-draw->.. || ./\D .................. C/\ | | ..................... | | | | ..................... | | Rope ................. Rope Left hand ........... Right hand
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Carnage
May 14, 2010, 2:49 PM
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oldsalt wrote: I have a good reason for op. facing gates... Upper biner gate faces bolt from left hand or right, leaving lower gate in opposite orientation facing my left hand or right as it brings the rope to the gate. Easier to do than say. C is rt facing gate, D is lft facing gate .....bolt...........bolt ...C [] ............ [] D ...|| ................. || ...|| ..<-draw->.. || ./\D .................. C/\ | | ..................... | | | | ..................... | | Rope ................. Rope Left hand ........... Right hand if you have trouble clipping the biner/bold when it is facing the "wrong" way you're doing it wrong. Sport climbing is about climbing, not about clipping. if the clipping is holding you back, you got some practicing to do.
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oldsalt
May 15, 2010, 4:33 AM
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Carnage wrote: oldsalt wrote: I have a good reason for op. facing gates... Upper biner gate faces bolt from left hand or right, leaving lower gate in opposite orientation facing my left hand or right as it brings the rope to the gate. Easier to do than say. C is rt facing gate, D is lft facing gate .....bolt...........bolt ...C [] ............ [] D ...|| ................. || ...|| ..<-draw->.. || ./\D .................. C/\ | | ..................... | | | | ..................... | | Rope ................. Rope Left hand ........... Right hand if you have trouble clipping the biner/bold when it is facing the "wrong" way you're doing it wrong. Sport climbing is about climbing, not about clipping. if the clipping is holding you back, you got some practicing to do. You assume: I have a preferred way to do something because I can't do it other ways. Clipping is holding me back. Sport climbing makes you an expert. 0 for 3, Dude You live in North Carolina, get a rack and learn to use it. Contribute something positive or at least useful.
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bill413
May 16, 2010, 12:18 AM
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oldsalt wrote: Carnage wrote: oldsalt wrote: I have a good reason for op. facing gates... Upper biner gate faces bolt from left hand or right, leaving lower gate in opposite orientation facing my left hand or right as it brings the rope to the gate. Easier to do than say. C is rt facing gate, D is lft facing gate .....bolt...........bolt ...C [] ............ [] D ...|| ................. || ...|| ..<-draw->.. || ./\D .................. C/\ | | ..................... | | | | ..................... | | Rope ................. Rope Left hand ........... Right hand if you have trouble clipping the biner/bold when it is facing the "wrong" way you're doing it wrong. Sport climbing is about climbing, not about clipping. if the clipping is holding you back, you got some practicing to do. You assume: I have a preferred way to do something because I can't do it other ways. Clipping is holding me back. Sport climbing makes you an expert. 0 for 3, Dude You live in North Carolina, get a rack and learn to use it. Contribute something positive or at least useful. Just because one way is more comfortable than another... +1
(This post was edited by bill413 on May 16, 2010, 12:19 AM)
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jeepnphreak
May 16, 2010, 4:46 AM
Post #9 of 38
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acorneau wrote: I was just looking at some gear on a website (big surprise, huh?) and saw perhaps the weirdest justification for having their pre-made draws with gates facing in opposite directions: In reply to: We orient our carabiners on all our standard quickdraws with the gates facing opposite each other. We feel that this is the safest method to minimize the possibility of simultaneously loading both carabiners in a gate-open position while leading routes which may wander above and to the left or right of your last placement. Under certain circumstances, it is possible for both gates to open during a fall as the ‘draw is scraped along the rock while it orients iteself below the point of protection. By opposing the carabiners on a draw, we reduce the possibility of simultaneous gate-opening in this manner. One open gate versus two... who really cares? It's kind of the "weakest link in the chain" situation. Even if one biner breaks because it loaded with an open gate or it comes off the rope/hanger, it's still no longer a valid protection point. Anyone else ever heard this kind of justification for opposite-facing gates on quickdraws before? duh, simple fix. Just make all you draws all with locking binersth problem of wich way to orentate the biner solved.
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angry
May 16, 2010, 12:01 PM
Post #10 of 38
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You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life.
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bill413
May 16, 2010, 5:34 PM
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angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip.
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angry
May 17, 2010, 12:47 AM
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bill413 wrote: angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip. Dunno, I have to physically try to backclip. I'd imagine to continously backclip you'd be so absurdly uncoordinated that you'd more than likely have to get rescued long before you started the route.
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rockforlife
May 17, 2010, 1:58 AM
Post #13 of 38
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angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. [/end thread] Start RC.COM
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bill413
May 17, 2010, 1:59 AM
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angry wrote: bill413 wrote: angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip. Dunno, I have to physically try to backclip. I'd imagine to continously backclip you'd be so absurdly uncoordinated that you'd more than likely have to get rescued long before you started the route. I can't wait to see that category in ANAM - "Rescued before starting route" ("Not wearing helmet")
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darkgift06
May 20, 2010, 6:46 PM
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If you are that worried, put a 2nd draw on the hanger in the other direction.
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Arrogant_Bastard
May 27, 2010, 2:29 AM
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Carnage wrote: oldsalt wrote: I have a good reason for op. facing gates... Upper biner gate faces bolt from left hand or right, leaving lower gate in opposite orientation facing my left hand or right as it brings the rope to the gate. Easier to do than say. C is rt facing gate, D is lft facing gate .....bolt...........bolt ...C [] ............ [] D ...|| ................. || ...|| ..<-draw->.. || ./\D .................. C/\ | | ..................... | | | | ..................... | | Rope ................. Rope Left hand ........... Right hand if you have trouble clipping the biner/bold when it is facing the "wrong" way you're doing it wrong. Sport climbing is about climbing, not about clipping. if the clipping is holding you back, you got some practicing to do. He's still using ASCII graphics to illustrate a point. If he's as behind the times in his climbing as he is with computers he's probably still using military webbing and a hemp rope. You can't expect him to be able to clip.
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Arrogant_Bastard
May 27, 2010, 4:50 AM
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oldsalt wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: He's still using ASCII graphics to illustrate a point. If he's as behind the times in his climbing as he is with computers he's probably still using military webbing and a hemp rope. You can't expect him to be able to clip. Ouch, AB! I spend 45 minutes typing and previewing a graphic on my Tandy Color Computer with chiclet keyboard and you caught the hidden code that said, "I wish I could learn to clip bolts and quit depending on my trusty toilet plunger suction cams." '''''' ^ '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''''' = '''' === '' ==== '====== The times are a changin Ole Salt. You should check out these new fangled "belay device" gizmos the kids are using now adays. It'll never replace the hip belay.
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evanwish
Jun 6, 2010, 8:32 PM
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acorneau wrote: I was just looking at some gear on a website This one?
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vegastradguy
Jun 6, 2010, 9:05 PM
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angry wrote: bill413 wrote: angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip. Dunno, I have to physically try to backclip. I'd imagine to continously backclip you'd be so absurdly uncoordinated that you'd more than likely have to get rescued long before you started the route. the last time i was out at wall of confusion, i saw a girl leading up a .10ish thing and had the first three draws backclipped and was trying really hard to backclip the fourth. and then she took an upside down fall. thankfully the draws didnt unclip, but it was terrifying enough to watch.
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taydude
Jun 6, 2010, 9:18 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: angry wrote: bill413 wrote: angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip. Dunno, I have to physically try to backclip. I'd imagine to continously backclip you'd be so absurdly uncoordinated that you'd more than likely have to get rescued long before you started the route. the last time i was out at wall of confusion, i saw a girl leading up a .10ish thing and had the first three draws backclipped and was trying really hard to backclip the fourth. and then she took an upside down fall. thankfully the draws didnt unclip, but it was terrifying enough to watch. How do people actually flip over like that? It makes sense if you hit something or get caught in the rope but I've seen people just start to fall and flip right over. seems like something that's easy to avoid.
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bill413
Jun 6, 2010, 9:52 PM
Post #22 of 38
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evanwish wrote: acorneau wrote: I was just looking at some gear on a website This one? Interesting write up on that site:
In reply to: Omega Pacific Dirt Bag Quickdraw All Bright Straight/Bent, 4 Draw [OPCLQD6SB] $12.60 $11.90 On Sale! Even if you're on a budget and living in the dirt, you still deserve Omega Pacific quality! We stripped away all the frou-frou to provide you a basic, reliable and easy-to-use quick draw at home on long routes and clip-ups alike. We take the Classic Straight and Bent Gate carabiners and combine them with a single-color, 4-inch draw so you never have to pay more than ten bucks for this setup.
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vegastradguy
Jun 6, 2010, 9:54 PM
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taydude wrote: vegastradguy wrote: angry wrote: bill413 wrote: angry wrote: You guys are unbelievable. I can't think of a time sport climbing where the direction on the gate mattered even a little bit. I can't even think of a time that I even noticed the gate facing one way or another. It's there, clip it, move on with life. Wait. Are you trying to take all the mystique out of sprot climbing? Next you'll be telling me that I won't instantly fall off the wall & die if I backclip. Dunno, I have to physically try to backclip. I'd imagine to continously backclip you'd be so absurdly uncoordinated that you'd more than likely have to get rescued long before you started the route. the last time i was out at wall of confusion, i saw a girl leading up a .10ish thing and had the first three draws backclipped and was trying really hard to backclip the fourth. and then she took an upside down fall. thankfully the draws didnt unclip, but it was terrifying enough to watch. How do people actually flip over like that? It makes sense if you hit something or get caught in the rope but I've seen people just start to fall and flip right over. seems like something that's easy to avoid. she just let go with her hands and fell right over backwards- she apparently didnt notice the two GIANT footholds she was standing on....crazy scary.
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gosharks
Jun 6, 2010, 10:40 PM
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taydude wrote: How do people actually flip over like that? It makes sense if you hit something or get caught in the rope but I've seen people just start to fall and flip right over. seems like something that's easy to avoid. I've flipped before without doing anything wrong. (here come the nay sayers..) Long story short, bolt is at my 7-8 o'clock, two points of contact. Right foot is about 3 o'clock and my left hand is on a gaston at 11. Right foot slips as I pull into the gaston and I take a header to the right. Due to the bolt placement, I flip and thankfully only scrape my elbow.
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