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patmay81
Jul 8, 2010, 6:14 PM
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fresh wrote: livinonasandbar wrote: A study undertaken by Metolius found that, generally, 1 out of 20 BOMBER cam placements will fail. The reasons for such are myriad. Which one of the 20 will you take a fall on? Without redundancy, you're playing Russian Roulette. Your call... link to the study? I read in a metolius cam info packet that 1 in 20 cam placements can fail, but I thought that counted crappy placements, or was complete BS. 
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ryanb
Jul 8, 2010, 6:18 PM
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If its a really parallel crack in granite you want a couple of these:
http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,2042T_Metolius-Ultralight-Power-Cam-Size-0.html (google around for a working 25% off coupon to make it an even better deal)
Aliens, tcu's, c3's master cams are all designed to have a narrow head...which works great in flaring/weathered granite (jtree, alpine and desert areas, pin scars) but in a clean break in clean granite four lobes inspires extra confidence. A combo of a purple fcu/power cam + a purple master cam or tcu (ie something narrow) would make a good adition to your rack and five you two pieces to stuff in that crack.
Don't worry too much about rated strengths for small gear...manufactures use different philosophies for testing but at that level placement matters more. Metolius rates their gear to reflect actually strength in the rock, aliens and other brands use more of a theoretical maximum strength.
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joeforte
Jul 8, 2010, 7:41 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Not bringing it down to my level. It sounded like the guy was working on a new climb. if that is the case and the gear sucks at the crux, fixing a pin when he is establishing the climb may be a good idea. I would shy away from the bolt unless the pin sucked. All part of the game. If the climb is allready established then you most will be stuck with the crappy gear.
I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm wondering why a piton and not a bolt? A bolt might be less damaging to the rock and less permanent, if removal was ever needed (Triplex and filler putty). Wouldn't a piton possibly damage or enlarge the crack, hence altering the route?
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climbingaggie03
Jul 8, 2010, 7:54 PM
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joeforte wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Not bringing it down to my level. It sounded like the guy was working on a new climb. if that is the case and the gear sucks at the crux, fixing a pin when he is establishing the climb may be a good idea. I would shy away from the bolt unless the pin sucked. All part of the game. If the climb is allready established then you most will be stuck with the crappy gear. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm wondering why a piton and not a bolt? A bolt might be less damaging to the rock and less permanent, if removal was ever needed (Triplex and filler putty). Wouldn't a piton possibly damage or enlarge the crack, hence altering the route?
I can't answer for Tradman, but for me, I'd go with a piton for a couple of reasons.
1. A piton is easier/quicker to place on lead than drilling a bolt on lead.
2 Pulling Pitons isn't that hard, they used to be considered removable pro. Unless the eye breaks...
3. I'd place a piton and leave it, whenever it does come out, then most likely yes, the rock will be changed, however, it might create a good/better placement for a nut or tcu.
Just my $0.02
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rgold
Jul 8, 2010, 8:16 PM
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Rope stretch does not count in calculating the fall factor.
The main thing is to get in more than one piece. You are looking at a long fall on marginal gear that absolutely has to hold; I'd try for at least three pieces, just as you would for a belay anchor.
Clipping multiple pieces is greatly simplified if you use double ropes.
The red C3 is just a tad smaller than a green Alien and might just fit.
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ryanb
Jul 8, 2010, 8:18 PM
Post #31 of 116
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climbingaggie03 wrote: joeforte wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Not bringing it down to my level. It sounded like the guy was working on a new climb. if that is the case and the gear sucks at the crux, fixing a pin when he is establishing the climb may be a good idea. I would shy away from the bolt unless the pin sucked. All part of the game. If the climb is allready established then you most will be stuck with the crappy gear. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but I'm wondering why a piton and not a bolt? A bolt might be less damaging to the rock and less permanent, if removal was ever needed (Triplex and filler putty). Wouldn't a piton possibly damage or enlarge the crack, hence altering the route? I can't answer for Tradman, but for me, I'd go with a piton for a couple of reasons. 1. A piton is easier/quicker to place on lead than drilling a bolt on lead. 2 Pulling Pitons isn't that hard, they used to be considered removable pro. Unless the eye breaks... 3. I'd place a piton and leave it, whenever it does come out, then most likely yes, the rock will be changed, however, it might create a good/better placement for a nut or tcu. Just my $0.02
No offense, but placing a piton in a purple tcu crack is kind of weak-sauce with modern small cams available. If there is clean gear use it...people, myself included and i'm a coward, fall on even smaller cams (in redundant placements in my case)
Fixed pins don't tend to pull, they break after a couple of years of exposure/rust (can't get stainless pins...) if people are falling on them and they leaving a chunk of metal in the crack until someone goes up there with a battery saws-all or similar. (see the good number of snapped pins on routes like iron horse, or tadpole at index, wa if you don't believe me).
2-3 properly placed 0 metolius cams in good granite is a solid option, and one I would rather climb above then an old fixed pin of unknown age.
I'd say knife blades/bugaboos on new ground up routes are the only acceptable pin in modern crag climbing.
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billcoe_
Jul 8, 2010, 8:23 PM
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Going with Rgold. But why not just toprope it? 50 feet...come on.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 8, 2010, 10:08 PM
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When i am putting up a new rout and there is a good micro cam placenet then i am fine with that. If its questionable and the results of a fall would be bad then I don't hessitate to pound a pin or drill a bolt. Bolts are cheaper than pins but pins have more charecter and go allong with takeing what the rock has to offer. Properly placed pins can be good for 20+ years even in the northeast.
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jt512
Jul 8, 2010, 10:11 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: When i am putting up a new rout and there is a good micro cam placenet then i am fine with that. If its questionable and the results of a fall would be bad then I don't hessitate to pound a pin or drill a bolt. Bolts are cheaper than pins but pins have more charecter and go allong with takeing what the rock has to offer. Properly placed pins can be good for 20+ years even in the northeast.
Clean climbing ethic, anyone?
Jay
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 8, 2010, 10:22 PM
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jay, A fixed pin is clean just like a bolt drilled on lead is clean.
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rgold
Jul 8, 2010, 11:21 PM
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If the generation that brought you clean climbing believed anything even close to that about placing new "fixed" pins, clean climbing would never have happened at all.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 8, 2010, 11:26 PM)
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ryanb
Jul 9, 2010, 12:11 AM
Post #37 of 116
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Properly placed pins can be good for 20+ years even in the northeast.
There are 3 or 4 sheered pin blades (and two intact fixed pins) below the crux of "Iron Horse" which was first freed (by Peter Croft) in 1981 so i'd say a fixed pin can be expected to last less then ten years if people are falling on it occasionally. Maybe more for thicker pitons.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 12:38 AM
Post #38 of 116
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tradmanclimbs wrote: jay, A fixed pin is clean just like a bolt drilled on lead is clean.
Ditto rgold's post.
Jay
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 1:02 AM
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so jay the sport climber is against fixed gear? Rgold. The current standard when establishing new climbs in the northeast at places other than the gunks is that if a pin is determined as the best option for gear it is then fixed by the FA party. This is quite normal and common. I agree that often a bolt is a better option. it depends on the nature of the climb and the placement.
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rgold
Jul 9, 2010, 1:31 AM
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The climb in question has "a perfect parallel-sided crack." Intelligent placement of several small pieces in such a feature is the normal trad climbing procedure as far as I know.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 1:39 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: so jay the sport climber is against fixed gear?
Against placing a piton for no good reason? Yeah.
Jay
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 2:30 AM
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It's all just theory unless we actually attempt the climb in question. When I put up a climb if there is a high probability of a fall and the results of that fall would be real bad and I determine that the gear sucks then there is going to be some fixed gear placed that will be bomber.
If i got 2 absolutly perfect micro gear placements in good rock I probobly would be ok with that. One micro cam in an X situation that has hard insecure moves and I will break out the hammer in a heartbeat. My Ego is not anywhere near insecure enough to make me do something stupidly dangerous just to please the ethics police. It's bad enough that i usually go ground up and hand drill. i am not going to get chopped doing hard moves over total mank just to prove how manly I am.
jay, Most sport climbs have bolts next to features that would take taped hooks, ball nuts, micro stoppers and often perfect big fat bomber gear so you should excuse yourself from this discussion other than to vote for the 1/2in glue in
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 2:35 AM
Post #43 of 116
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tradmanclimbs wrote: If i got 2 absolutly perfect micro gear placements in good rock I probobly would be ok with that. One micro cam in an X situation that has hard insecure moves and I will break out the hammer in a heartbeat. My Ego is not anywhere near insecure enough to make me do something stupidly dangerous just to please the ethics police.
You're confused. Your ego is actually too bloated to leave the FA to a better climber. Seems we have a diminution of standards on the East Coast, unless you're talking out of your ass about what is actually considered to be acceptable trad FA practices out there.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 9, 2010, 2:55 AM)
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wmfork
Jul 9, 2010, 2:46 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: My Ego is not anywhere near insecure enough to make me do something stupidly dangerous just to please the ethics police. It's bad enough that i usually go ground up and hand drill. i am not going to get chopped doing hard moves over total mank just to prove how manly I am.
tradmanclimbs wrote: jay, Most sport climbs have bolts next to features that would take taped hooks, ball nuts, micro stoppers... |
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 2:57 AM
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Not confused at all. I like putting climbs up on lead but i do Not have any use for X rated climbs. I feel that guys who put up X rated climbs and do not go back and fix them or give someone else permission to fix them have ego problems. Does not have to be G rated by any means but shouldn't be a death rout either.
When you put up a route the way it generaly works in our game is the rest of the climbing community is going to be stuck with it for a very long time if not forever. Sometimes the difference between a 5 star classic and a total bag of crap that fades into obscurity is a single bolt....
Do it right and you contribute a great resorce to the climbing community. Do it wrong and you get to say "look at me! i am super strong and brave! too bad your too chicken to do my climb but its mine and you can't do anything about it. So there
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jul 9, 2010, 3:00 AM)
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dr_feelgood
Jul 9, 2010, 2:59 AM
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Hey everyone! Look!
It's a cock measuring contest!
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johnwesely
Jul 9, 2010, 3:07 AM
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dr_feelgood wrote: Hey everyone! Look! It's a cock measuring contest!
9 inches.
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jt512
Jul 9, 2010, 3:09 AM
Post #48 of 116
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Not confused at all. I like putting climbs up on lead but i do Not have any use for X rated climbs.
Sorry, but that shows just how confused you are. Let's rephrase your statement: "I like putting climbs up on lead, [even though I have to pound a piton on a free climb—a practice which has been unacceptable by the climbing community for three decades—whereas, if I weren't so self-absorbed, I'd leave the FA to a stronger climber]."
In case that's too long a sentence for you, consider just the first two words: "I like." That's ego. That's you being willing to scar rock for no reason other than your own selfish desires.
Jay
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rgold
Jul 9, 2010, 3:13 AM
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In addition to the idea of leaving the ascent to a better climber (and make no mistake, there are always going to be better climbers), there is the wonderful option of becoming that better climber yourself and returning.
I know several routes that people prepared for for years until they felt ready for the challenges involved, rather than place fixed gear when they weren't up to the ascent.
"Current standards," if that's what they are, seem hell-bent on eliminating this whole genre of experience from trad climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 9, 2010, 3:14 AM
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Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not?
How full of shit can you possibly be?
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