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rangerrob
Jul 10, 2010, 4:35 AM
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Rich, you are always the good will ambassador on these sites, so let me say what I know you're thinking. It sounds like Tradman from Vermont gets shut down whenever he comes to the Gunks, and therefore is bitter about the climbing here. I think it's pretty damned funny that he's telling us that RGold is "spoiled" with all the well protected routes he does. perhaps he should take a little look at some of the routes RGold put up in the 60's and 70's. Well protected my ass. Put up a route like Co-ex or Try Again with shitty shoes, a swami belt, and a few pins, and then you can brag about your accomplishments.
RR
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rgold
Jul 10, 2010, 5:33 AM
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Hey Rob, thanks for your support. But I am trying to not make this about T-Man, even if he wants to make it about me. He may be soloing Survival for all we know, and more power to him.
Frankly, my position has weak points and inconsistencies which he didn't bother to raise. Your example of Coexistence might make his point better than mine, since it had at the time and has had since unnecessary but-nice-to-have fixed pins at the crux. (I plead innocent to hypocrisy on that one since I made the ascent in 1967 before clean climbing was even a concept).
I think his point is that an area that has few climbs that can be climbed entirely cleanly should not be relegated to experts who have the skill and ability to lead routes that aren't easily and/or well protected.
My position is that if that is what nature produced, than that is what genuine trad climbing has to confront; nowhere is it written that the PG leader has some intrinsic right to PG climbs when the climbs are not PG.
Achievements which my generation would have celebrated and revered are viewed by him as selfish acts that deprive the PG-leading community of "classic lines."
One of the problems with the trad perspective I've advocated is that sport-climbing has altered all the assumptions. if it isn't suitably protectable, just bolt it bottom to top so that it can be enjoyed by "the community." Given that potential outcome, one might look at T-Man's advocacy of a single bolt or pin as restraint rather than profligacy.
The idea that trad climbing should deal with what nature provides rather than modify the environment to suit an arbitrary concept of what is or is not safe is rapidly becoming a fringe viewpoint, as the fundamental underpinnings of trad climbing sag under the weight of transferred sport-climbing perspectives---inappropriately transferred in my opinion.
I don't think there can be much doubt about where things are headed though.
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johnwesely
Jul 10, 2010, 1:41 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Rich, you are always the good will ambassador on these sites, so let me say what I know you're thinking. It sounds like Tradman from Vermont gets shut down whenever he comes to the Gunks, and therefore is bitter about the climbing here. I think it's pretty damned funny that he's telling us that RGold is "spoiled" with all the well protected routes he does. perhaps he should take a little look at some of the routes RGold put up in the 60's and 70's. Well protected my ass. Put up a route like Co-ex or Try Again with shitty shoes, a swami belt, and a few pins, and then you can brag about your accomplishments. RR
Ranger Rob, I have sneaking suspicion that you are actually Rgold's secret spray account.
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avalon420
Jul 10, 2010, 4:02 PM
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johnwesely wrote: scottek67 wrote: johnwesely wrote: jt512 wrote: johnwesely wrote: dynosore wrote: Lol at the sport climbers poo-poohing a trad climber that dares suggesting placing a single bolt to keep your butt off the deck. What a bunch of arbitrary BS. Are you referring to me? Probably me. Odd that he's the second traddie in the thread who doesn't understand the difference between a piton and a bolt. Jay That can be a very difficult distinction to make. I always remember it by telling myself that a bolt is always placed with a gun and a piton is always placed with a hammer. That makes it pretty easy. = A mythical rock climbing implement featured in the movie Cliffhanger (quoted from wikipedia) http://www.google.ca/...&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAw click on "see full size image" It is very clearly not a myth. How do you think those bolts get up there?
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jakedatc
Jul 10, 2010, 6:26 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jake, what makes my ground up climb that sports a few bolts and the very rare pin in places where i deem the fixed protection nessicary a travesty when your top down bolted sport climb is not? How full of shit can you possibly be?
How the FUCK did i get named in this :P JT is not Jake. 
In reply to: Jay, while you are at it whats up with all your bolts? why don't you just wait for someone stronger to come allong and do your climbs without bolts?
Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack..
go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you.
sporty defending the trad!
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joeforte
Jul 10, 2010, 7:36 PM
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jakedatc wrote: Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack.. go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you. sporty defending the trad!
Jake, somehow I knew you'd bring up the retrobolted gear routes at Rumney. There are more than a few "sport routes that take gear". But according to you, without the bolts they would get too dirty from lack of traffic. Afterall, Rumney is a SPORT ONLY destination right?
(For all wondering, I brought my rack to Rumney a few years ago, and climbed some routes on gear, only to find bolts next to cracks. Jake was the one that filled me in with the ethics behind it all.)
BTW Jake, I'll hopefully be stopping by Rumney on my way to Cannon this August. If you are available, I'd like to climb with you finally. Oh, and I'll gladly whip on some gear placements for you too, although I doubt I'll be using many cams in that rock...nuts and tricams are the way to go in that schist!
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jakedatc
Jul 10, 2010, 7:55 PM
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joeforte wrote: jakedatc wrote: Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack.. go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you. sporty defending the trad! Jake, somehow I knew you'd bring up the retrobolted gear routes at Rumney. There are more than a few "sport routes that take gear". But according to you, without the bolts they would get too dirty from lack of traffic. Afterall, Rumney is a SPORT ONLY destination right? (For all wondering, I brought my rack to Rumney a few years ago, and climbed some routes on gear, only to find bolts next to cracks. Jake was the one that filled me in with the ethics behind it all.) BTW Jake, I'll hopefully be stopping by Rumney on my way to Cannon this August. If you are available, I'd like to climb with you finally. Oh, and I'll gladly whip on some gear placements for you too, although I doubt I'll be using many cams in that rock...nuts and tricams are the way to go in that schist!
There are retro'd routes and they see a lot more traffic now. All were done with the permission of the FA or the FA themselves. you *can* do many of the routes on gear.. my friend Lee has been doing many this summer like that for giggles. It is not exactly the best method if you are not a solid trad leader and have done the routes many times like he has.
And i would rather see a bolt placed than a pin.. bolts do not change holds but pins that are put and and pulled out expand holds. Hence many free'd aid lines.
I've actually done a few gear routes at rumney this year. One that was Retro'd and 2 that are straight trad.
Let me know when you're up and i'll see what i can do. first 2 weeks of aug are tricky. I won't carry you out though ;)
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Jul 10, 2010, 7:56 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 10, 2010, 8:15 PM
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Jake, sorry for the typo on the name, Trust me, Rumny especially and most other sport crags that I have been too have bolts in situations where gear would be anywhere from sketch to bomber. Keep in mind that i am being attacked for my beliefs in placeing fixed gear in situations where trad gear is sketch and the climbing is insecure for the grade.
RRob. that was pathetic.. The gunks are awsome. My 1980 guide book is 2 in thick and has a bazilion awsome climbs in it.. The only reason that i don't climb there much anymore is ..
Too crowded.
Too close to the city.
Too expensive..
Too liklly to get robbed (my rack was stolen from the base of directisima 1986)
Camping situation is not ideal and too much driveing.
Rgold I am sure you are a nice and good person but i do believe that our ideas about climbing are most often formed by where we come from. Coming from an area that is blessed with so many gear protected routs gives you a different perspective than if you came from an area that was leaner in the gear rout potentual..
In areas that have an abundance of rock and there is lots of room for all styles I am ok with a guy (chicks are usually smarter than this) putting up an X rated test piece and not allowing a retro. If the rock is limited then i feel that kind of move is complete selfish ego trip.
Keep in mind that if we stuck to Rich's rules there would be no climbs on El cap and probobly half dome as well, most of the climbs in the needles SD would not exist other than X rated solos. No sport climbing at all ANYWHERE. (Jay take notice) many of the top notch climbs in the Daks would be history probobly more than a third of the climbs in white mountains would be X rated or non existant...
Before you jump on the band wagon to throw rocks at me take a real close look at yourself and what you really like to climb when you are not trying to sound all tuff and cool on the internet.
The names i dropped were just the names of the folks who put up many of the climbs that i have been on in the last few weeks.
None of you have probobly done any of my routs so how can you judge them? I have had folks ask me to add bolts to my climbs because they were too spicy. A few times I have done it.. Most times i have ruled against the retro when i felt the climb was reasonably safe as I had done it. Yes, I made the call on how everyone else gets to experience that piece of rock for at least as long as i am still alive and often a lot longer. Every first ascentionist has that power. Right or wrong that is how we play this game. I do not take that responsibility lightly and I put a lot of thought into creating a rout that will be challenging at the grade but not a death rout. If I want death routs I climb ice or solo.
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jakedatc
Jul 10, 2010, 8:27 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Jake, sorry for the typo on the name, Trust me, Rumny especially and most other sport crags that I have been too have bolts in situations where gear would be anywhere from sketch to bomber. Keep in mind that i am being attacked for my beliefs in placeing fixed gear in situations where trad gear is sketch and the climbing is insecure for the grade.
Ok, but you said that you'd pound a pin into a parallel sided crack that takes at least 1 blue alien or equivalent C3, TCU or whatever. I think if you said that you would place a bolt then you might not have been attacked quite as much. Pins change the nature of the rock, bolts are not where the holds are.
Also, what is the point of bolting a route that is "Spicy" unless it is completely ground up and placing bolts from stances then that is as contrived and egotistical as any X rated route.
(This post was edited by jakedatc on Jul 10, 2010, 8:30 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 10, 2010, 8:46 PM
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jake, i do usualy do the ground up thing. Spicy is diferent for many.. Do you want to sleep with a woman who lays there like a couch or do you want to hang on for the most wild ride of you life  Lots of gray areas but what i like to do is simply do the math. If the climbing is at or near the grade of the climb the gear needs to keep you off the deck or any serious ledges. Have fun but don't kill anyone, especialy ME
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moose_droppings
Jul 10, 2010, 9:18 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: ... most of the climbs in the needles SD would not exist...
This certainly is true. Even in the 70's, getting safely to the top was more important than leaving it as found.
And some wonder were the newer gym-crossovers get gull to make everything safe.
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dr_feelgood
Jul 11, 2010, 2:09 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: ... most of the climbs in the needles SD would not exist... This certainly is true. Even in the 70's, getting safely to the top was more important than leaving it as found. And some wonder were the newer gym-crossovers get gull to make everything safe.
The phrase you are looking for is "get the gall".
Please do not let it happen again.
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moose_droppings
Jul 11, 2010, 2:54 AM
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dr_feelgood wrote: moose_droppings wrote: And some wonder were the newer gym-crossovers get gull to make everything safe. The phrase you are looking for is " get the gall". Please do not let it happen again.
Wasn't he the president of France?
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joeforte
Jul 13, 2010, 1:01 AM
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jakedatc wrote: joeforte wrote: jakedatc wrote: Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack.. go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you. sporty defending the trad! Jake, somehow I knew you'd bring up the retrobolted gear routes at Rumney. There are more than a few "sport routes that take gear". But according to you, without the bolts they would get too dirty from lack of traffic. Afterall, Rumney is a SPORT ONLY destination right? (For all wondering, I brought my rack to Rumney a few years ago, and climbed some routes on gear, only to find bolts next to cracks. Jake was the one that filled me in with the ethics behind it all.) BTW Jake, I'll hopefully be stopping by Rumney on my way to Cannon this August. If you are available, I'd like to climb with you finally. Oh, and I'll gladly whip on some gear placements for you too, although I doubt I'll be using many cams in that rock...nuts and tricams are the way to go in that schist! There are retro'd routes and they see a lot more traffic now. All were done with the permission of the FA or the FA themselves. you *can* do many of the routes on gear.. my friend Lee has been doing many this summer like that for giggles. It is not exactly the best method if you are not a solid trad leader and have done the routes many times like he has. And i would rather see a bolt placed than a pin.. bolts do not change holds but pins that are put and and pulled out expand holds. Hence many free'd aid lines. I've actually done a few gear routes at rumney this year. One that was Retro'd and 2 that are straight trad. Let me know when you're up and i'll see what i can do. first 2 weeks of aug are tricky. I won't carry you out though ;)
Fair enough, but would you carry my rack out? 
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jakedatc
Jul 13, 2010, 1:31 AM
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joeforte wrote: jakedatc wrote: joeforte wrote: jakedatc wrote: Sport routes do not take gear. If a piece of gear goes there then there should not be a pin. the guy said at least 1 if not 2 cams can go in the crack.. go to Rumney and place a cam in one of those cracks and then take a solid whip onto it and see how much rock you take down with you. sporty defending the trad! Jake, somehow I knew you'd bring up the retrobolted gear routes at Rumney. There are more than a few "sport routes that take gear". But according to you, without the bolts they would get too dirty from lack of traffic. Afterall, Rumney is a SPORT ONLY destination right? (For all wondering, I brought my rack to Rumney a few years ago, and climbed some routes on gear, only to find bolts next to cracks. Jake was the one that filled me in with the ethics behind it all.) BTW Jake, I'll hopefully be stopping by Rumney on my way to Cannon this August. If you are available, I'd like to climb with you finally. Oh, and I'll gladly whip on some gear placements for you too, although I doubt I'll be using many cams in that rock...nuts and tricams are the way to go in that schist! There are retro'd routes and they see a lot more traffic now. All were done with the permission of the FA or the FA themselves. you *can* do many of the routes on gear.. my friend Lee has been doing many this summer like that for giggles. It is not exactly the best method if you are not a solid trad leader and have done the routes many times like he has. And i would rather see a bolt placed than a pin.. bolts do not change holds but pins that are put and and pulled out expand holds. Hence many free'd aid lines. I've actually done a few gear routes at rumney this year. One that was Retro'd and 2 that are straight trad. Let me know when you're up and i'll see what i can do. first 2 weeks of aug are tricky. I won't carry you out though ;) Fair enough, but would you carry my rack out?
right to my car :)
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caughtinside
Jul 13, 2010, 2:05 AM
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I probably wouldn't do the climb if I had to bet the farm on one blue alien, or any single piece blue alien size.
That said, it sounds like the crux is well above this blue alien slot. It doesn't make much sense to me to put a pin in the blue alien slot. If you really want it to be safe, you put a bolt up higher near the crux. If you want to do it without fixed gear, you don't place the pin or the bolt.
What everyone else has said about looking to double or triple up is the thing to investigate.
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adatesman
Jul 13, 2010, 2:14 AM
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 13, 2010, 11:01 AM
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A well placed and thought out bolt wouldn't harm the rock either and would create a climb that all you guys would enjoy climbing if you were not trying to be all cool and PC on the internet
Seriously, well thought out and conservativly placed bolts are not the problem, cars, condos, golf courses, politics and foot traffic are all much more harmfull than a few well thought out bolts.
This subject always gets completly irational just like guns, abortion and the whole right wingers VS liberals thing.. I see the anti bolt crowd as the right wingers taliban wanna be's and the rumny bolt everything folks as the wacked out liberals.. There Is a middle ground and most climbers actually fit into the center quite well...
Funny thing though with climbing. It is PC/cool to side with the religious right winger anti bolt crowd when yapping on the internet but then go out next weekend and be darn happy when you clip that bolt.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Jul 13, 2010, 4:53 PM)
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cracklover
Jul 13, 2010, 8:00 PM
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RG, as always you make a well reasoned argument. But I am left with a serious question.
In your opinion, is there no place for a hammer on longer serious FA attempts? Does drilling from stances (or hooks), or pounding a pin or two in a substantial route that is otherwise protectable with clean gear not kosher? Does it not satisfy the following criteria?
In reply to: Start at the bottom, arm yourself with whatever trinkets modern technology has developed, and either succeed or back off.
Taking an example that Tradman brought up earlier, let's look at Diedre. Now I don't want to get into whether what the actual FA party did was kosher or not, particularly since the climb was done *before* the clean climbing revolution came along. What I'm interested in is what would be kosher to do if that were an FA *today*.
To my recollection, the best and only decent gear to protect the step across is a pin. As such, I don't see the problem with today's FA party placing that pin. Mind you, I think the OP's situation is rather different, since I think he admitted that two (or even three) small pieces could potentially be placed before the crux on his climb.
So back to the pin on Diedre - Certainly the climb could be done without it, but why say that the modern FA party *must* do so? I honestly don't see the problem with putting in an occasional pin or bolt on a multipitch climb that otherwise is well protected with clean removable gear. So far as I can see, placing a pin or bolt in an attempt to get from ground to summit has always been a valid last resort, when no other means of protection are available.
GO
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hanginaround
Jul 13, 2010, 8:09 PM
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gothcopter wrote: I say double up if at all possible. Also, I would seriously consider buying a screamer.
ditto
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 13, 2010, 9:40 PM
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It's not just Didre, its tens of thousands of other routs. even the Bacar yerin would a no go if we followed RGolds guidelines..
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jt512
Jul 13, 2010, 10:51 PM
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cracklover wrote: RG, as always you make a well reasoned argument. But I am left with a serious question. In your opinion, is there no place for a hammer on longer serious FA attempts? Does drilling from stances (or hooks), or pounding a pin or two in a substantial route that is otherwise protectable with clean gear not kosher? Does it not satisfy the following criteria? In reply to: Start at the bottom, arm yourself with whatever trinkets modern technology has developed, and either succeed or back off. Taking an example that Tradman brought up earlier, let's look at Diedre. Now I don't want to get into whether what the actual FA party did was kosher or not, particularly since the climb was done *before* the clean climbing revolution came along. What I'm interested in is what would be kosher to do if that were an FA *today*. To my recollection, the best and only decent gear to protect the step across is a pin. As such, I don't see the problem with today's FA party placing that pin. Mind you, I think the OP's situation is rather different, since I think he admitted that two (or even three) small pieces could potentially be placed before the crux on his climb. So back to the pin on Diedre - Certainly the climb could be done without it, but why say that the modern FA party *must* do so? I honestly don't see the problem with putting in an occasional pin or bolt on a multipitch climb that otherwise is well protected with clean removable gear. So far as I can see, placing a pin or bolt in an attempt to get from ground to summit has always been a valid last resort, when no other means of protection are available. GO
Pins and bolts are not equally "clean." The goal of the clean climbing revolution was to replace pitons, which scar the rock, with removable protection. Bolts, on the other hand, have always been, and continue to be, standard free climbing gear when placed on lead where removable pro cannot be placed.
Jay
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dugl33
Jul 14, 2010, 12:02 AM
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Well, its been entertaining watching this train-wreck of ethical debate unfold. The funny thing for me is I'm not particularly in the no fixed pins or mandatory run-outs camp.
My initial objection centered around a few crux elements:
1.) The OP never said this was a first ascent. You merely envisioned it as such, as far as I can tell. Perhaps I missed evidence to the contrary? I on the other hand envisioned a climb that had been lead previously on gear. Also an assumption.
2.) Your cavalier attitude about hammering pins in "perfectly parallel sided" cracks was annoying. You did not seem to recognize hammering a pin or placing a bolt is something to be taken with due consideration, and not merely because you lack a particular cam size. You continued to push your "nail-it!" solution. Indeed you pushed for it at least 2 more times after the OP rejected the idea.
Then down the road, we get:
3.) You repeatedly self-reference ..."when I put up a new route... blah blah blah". Its a bit tedious, plus see item #1. We still don't know if this is an FA.
4.) I would typify right-winger as "bolt the living shit out of it" and left-winger as, "you can lead it on duck taped hooks and RPs, just be sure to burn some sage and center your chi". Not sure why you are reversed on this image. Think right wing = pro hummer, left-wing = pro skateboard and bus pass, or maybe a Prius. Big footprint, small footprint. Get it?
On a side rant, a thread ran through a while back about tricky/small gear techniques and someone brought up the whole knife blade pin thing. I can't remember who it was. My suggestion was well, at least leave it fixed then. The answer came back "are you kidding, those things are like 16 dollars each". A fixed pin is less destructive than continually placing and removing pins. A bolt may well be less destructive than a pin in certain regards. Nuts and cams are typically the least destructive. So... yes, there are occasions for pins - I just don't think this is one of them.
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tradmanclimbs
Jul 14, 2010, 12:37 AM
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Doug,
#1, It's a thred hijak. At first i was simply jokeing but then folks started throwing stones so the debate morphed into a serious one.
#2 No one places pins to be removed on free climbs anymore. If you place it it is with the intent of it being fixed gear, If you want to keep a climb as traditional as possible and follow the weakness of the rock and you are putting the climb up on lead with no bolt gun then the fixed gear of choice is going to be a pin. If you do have the hand drill and it takes a good LA or KB you still may end up going with the pin simply because of how hard it is to hand drill on lead. More often the bolt will be the better option but you will find circumstances where a pin will be used and it will be totally acceptable. Get out and climb a little bit and you will find these kinds of routs.
#3 the purest anti bolt crowd are the religious ones, the holy ones and without a doubt the religious Right in the bolting debate. Just ask anyone who has experienced the ken Nichols of the world. The bolt everything and make it safe camp are the bleeding heart liberals.
Most of the rest of us are somwheres in the middle and not well served by either extreem.
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