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Lbrombach
Aug 19, 2010, 1:44 PM
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Am I the only one who ever does this? I'm not that experienced, but I've done it a couple times and it seems that there are times where it's easier to clip the rope in right next to me, then clip the hanger. I did notice that you must be careful to avoid ending up back clipped. Is there another good reason I never see anyone else do this? Maybe I just need to practice rope clipping from all sorts of weird angles and such.
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jt512
Aug 19, 2010, 2:00 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: Am I the only one who ever does this? I'm not that experienced, but I've done it a couple times and it seems that there are times where it's easier to clip the rope in right next to me, then clip the hanger. I did notice that you must be careful to avoid ending up back clipped. Is there another good reason I never see anyone else do this? Maybe I just need to practice rope clipping from all sorts of weird angles and such.
On 99% of clips you have only one free hand, so let me see how you would do this. You unclip the draw from your harness. Thus you are holding the bolt-end biner. So, you put the draw in your teeth, so that you can switch to holding the rope-end biner. You then do that and you clip the rope. Now, you're holding the wrong biner again, so you put the draw back into your teeth, switch your grip to the bolt-end biner, and finally you clip the bolt.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 19, 2010, 2:03 PM)
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kennoyce
Aug 19, 2010, 2:04 PM
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wow, all I can say is wow. I certainly hope that this is a troll and not serious.
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malcolm777b
Aug 19, 2010, 2:05 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: Am I the only one who ever does this? I'm not that experienced, but I've done it a couple times and it seems that there are times where it's easier to clip the rope in right next to me, then clip the hanger. I did notice that you must be careful to avoid ending up back clipped. Is there another good reason I never see anyone else do this? Maybe I just need to practice rope clipping from all sorts of weird angles and such.
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MS1
Aug 19, 2010, 2:13 PM
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So the potential problem is that you might pump out before clipping, right? Well, hanging the draw first helps in two ways. First, if the fall is good, go for the clip, and if you miss, it will be easier next time because you've already hung the draw. Alternatively, if the fall is bad, hang the draw and then you can grab it if you are worried about falling in a bad spot.
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Rudmin
Aug 19, 2010, 2:23 PM
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jt512 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: Am I the only one who ever does this? I'm not that experienced, but I've done it a couple times and it seems that there are times where it's easier to clip the rope in right next to me, then clip the hanger. I did notice that you must be careful to avoid ending up back clipped. Is there another good reason I never see anyone else do this? Maybe I just need to practice rope clipping from all sorts of weird angles and such. On 99% of clips you have only one free hand, so let me see how you would do this. You unclip the draw from your harness. Thus you are holding the bolt-end biner. So, you put the draw in your teeth, so that you can switch to holding the rope-end biner. You then do that and you clip the rope. Now, you're holding the wrong biner again, so you put the draw back into your teeth, switch your grip to the bolt-end biner, and finally you clip the bolt. Jay
It would make more sense to just rack em upside down or clip the bolt end to the rope end.
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jt512
Aug 19, 2010, 2:28 PM
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Rudmin wrote: jt512 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: Am I the only one who ever does this? I'm not that experienced, but I've done it a couple times and it seems that there are times where it's easier to clip the rope in right next to me, then clip the hanger. I did notice that you must be careful to avoid ending up back clipped. Is there another good reason I never see anyone else do this? Maybe I just need to practice rope clipping from all sorts of weird angles and such. On 99% of clips you have only one free hand, so let me see how you would do this. You unclip the draw from your harness. Thus you are holding the bolt-end biner. So, you put the draw in your teeth, so that you can switch to holding the rope-end biner. You then do that and you clip the rope. Now, you're holding the wrong biner again, so you put the draw back into your teeth, switch your grip to the bolt-end biner, and finally you clip the bolt. Jay It would make more sense to just rack em upside down or clip the bolt end to the rope end.
If you generally clipped the rope first, then it would make sense to rack your draws upside down, but the OP says he's only clipped this way "a couple of times." Even so, you'd still have the wrong biner in your hand after clipping the rope.
You should never clip the bolt-end biner to the rope. With use, bolt-end biners develop rough spots, and even burrs, in the basket that would damage your rope if you clipped it to that biner. Therefore, your draws should always have a dedicated rope-end biner and bolt-end biner.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 19, 2010, 2:32 PM)
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jmeizis
Aug 19, 2010, 2:33 PM
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After I initially learned to lead someone showed me this. It's not nearly as difficult as people make it out to be. It does have the added benefit of giving you handle to pull up rope with so you don't put the rope in your mouth. It also keeps you from dropping gear all the way to the ground. On the other hand it does feel like your putting more leverage on your feet, making some clips feel more insecure. Either way, I clip the way most people clip now because of habit. I don't think either way is safer or that much easier than the other. Now I'm going to go stuff cracks full of gear...hooray.
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Lbrombach
Aug 19, 2010, 2:40 PM
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OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. I know it's hard, but bear with me.
There is no shuffling or confusion as to which end I'm holding. At least once that I've done it, I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. The situation I've used it was more like I'm in a relatively ok position, but reaching the bolt requires lateral movement that starts putting me off balance or in a
tough spot. Now, reaching to to clip the bolt I could pull off no problem, but the mere fact that I'm holding the biner means that I have a couple inches extra reach for the sake of just getting it clipped in. Now in order to get the rope into the the other end, I have to reach even further with the weight of the rope not helping any as it's at the very far end of the lever and it all may be too far lest I lose my grip on the wall. Don't make me draw diagrams and use big words like "hypotenuse" or "moment arm."
Thank you MS1 for being useful. In the circumstance I recall most vividly, the issue was really one of being able to reach the hanging end of the draw once placed. I've done it a couple other times really just experimenting.
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Lbrombach
Aug 19, 2010, 2:42 PM
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oh, and thanks to the last few posters who posted as I typed. Sharing knowledge and experience is appreciated.
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jt512
Aug 19, 2010, 2:49 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. [...] I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop.
Your high IQ would have been easier to imagine if you had correctly explained how you clipped in the first place. But, hey, thanks for blaming us for misunderstanding your ambiguous post.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Aug 19, 2010, 2:49 PM)
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redlude97
Aug 19, 2010, 3:12 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. I know it's hard, but bear with me. There is no shuffling or confusion as to which end I'm holding. At least once that I've done it, I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. The situation I've used it was more like I'm in a relatively ok position, but reaching the bolt requires lateral movement that starts putting me off balance or in a tough spot. Now, reaching to to clip the bolt I could pull off no problem, but the mere fact that I'm holding the biner means that I have a couple inches extra reach for the sake of just getting it clipped in. Now in order to get the rope into the the other end, I have to reach even further with the weight of the rope not helping any as it's at the very far end of the lever and it all may be too far lest I lose my grip on the wall. Don't make me draw diagrams and use big words like "hypotenuse" or "moment arm." Thank you MS1 for being useful. In the circumstance I recall most vividly, the issue was really one of being able to reach the hanging end of the draw once placed. I've done it a couple other times really just experimenting.
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Rudmin
Aug 19, 2010, 3:13 PM
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jt512 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. [...] I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. Your high IQ would have been easier to imagine if you had correctly explained how you clipped in the first place. But, hey, thanks for blaming us for misunderstanding your ambiguous post. Jay
He never blamed you for anything. Why the chip on your shoulder?
He just asked about the principle of clipping the rope first. You trashed the idea on the basis of how you thought it might be done without ever having done it. He pointed out that your method was silly and instead of apologizing or dropping it, you trash him again for not predicting your criticisms and thwarting them earlier.
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jt512
Aug 19, 2010, 3:15 PM
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Anyway, now that you've made clear what it is you're doing, as I see it, the advantage would be only having to reach up to the bolt once. The disadvantages would be twofold: one, reaching up to the bolt would require more strength due to friction between the rope and the pre-clipped biner; and, two, if you fell between clipping the rope into your draw and unclipping your draw from your harness, you'll rip your gear loop, showering draws down to the ground and requiring you to buy a new harness.
All that said, I have one partner who sometimes pre-clips all his draws to his rope, in the manner you describe, before leaving the ground. Elsewhere, this has been referred to as "express clipping," and I've really never grokked why anybody would do it.
Jay
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MS1
Aug 19, 2010, 3:19 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. I know it's hard, but bear with me. There is no shuffling or confusion as to which end I'm holding. At least once that I've done it, I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. The situation I've used it was more like I'm in a relatively ok position, but reaching the bolt requires lateral movement that starts putting me off balance or in a tough spot. Now, reaching to to clip the bolt I could pull off no problem, but the mere fact that I'm holding the biner means that I have a couple inches extra reach for the sake of just getting it clipped in. Now in order to get the rope into the the other end, I have to reach even further with the weight of the rope not helping any as it's at the very far end of the lever and it all may be too far lest I lose my grip on the wall. Don't make me draw diagrams and use big words like "hypotenuse" or "moment arm." Thank you MS1 for being useful. In the circumstance I recall most vividly, the issue was really one of being able to reach the hanging end of the draw once placed. I've done it a couple other times really just experimenting.
If the problem is a reachy clip, it seems easier just to keep a longer draw on your rack. For long sideways reaches, you can also give the draw a tap after you hang it to start it swinging, and then catch it with your clipping hand once you've pulled up the rope, which shortens the distance you have to reach once you've grabbed the rope. If that is confusing, watch what Mike Foley does at around 5:10 in this link: http://vimeo.com/12375253
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kennoyce
Aug 19, 2010, 3:23 PM
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Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. I know it's hard, but bear with me. There is no shuffling or confusion as to which end I'm holding. At least once that I've done it, I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. The situation I've used it was more like I'm in a relatively ok position, but reaching the bolt requires lateral movement that starts putting me off balance or in a tough spot. Now, reaching to to clip the bolt I could pull off no problem, but the mere fact that I'm holding the biner means that I have a couple inches extra reach for the sake of just getting it clipped in. Now in order to get the rope into the the other end, I have to reach even further with the weight of the rope not helping any as it's at the very far end of the lever and it all may be too far lest I lose my grip on the wall. Don't make me draw diagrams and use big words like "hypotenuse" or "moment arm." Thank you MS1 for being useful. In the circumstance I recall most vividly, the issue was really one of being able to reach the hanging end of the draw once placed. I've done it a couple other times really just experimenting.
WOW, you know what "hypotenuse" and "moment arm" mean, you must have made it through third grade geometry and science. I now bow down to your incredibly high IQ.
Seriously though, while there may be one clip in a million where your method is easier, I've never encountered one. Generally speaking, if you clip the draw to the rope first it will make it much harder to pull the rope up to the bolt because now you're fighting the friction between the rope and the biner. I do know this to be harder not due to experience with clipping this way, but from experience moving a cam to a higher position in a crack.
If there is a route somewhere where your method is easier then go for it, just realize that it's not the norm for a reason.
edit for cheesetit
(This post was edited by kennoyce on Aug 19, 2010, 4:05 PM)
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csproul
Aug 19, 2010, 3:52 PM
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At least his incredibly high IQ can figure out how to quote properly
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swoopee
Aug 19, 2010, 4:20 PM
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I do it quite a bit. Works great, one quick fluid movement and you're clipped. Although, there are a lot times that I clip the hanger first, so apparently it doesn't work in all situations? BTW, I use short fat quickdraws and it takes none of the fumbling that Jay suggests it would. I do, however, suspect that longer and/or thinner draws might make it more difficult.
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redlude97
Aug 19, 2010, 4:44 PM
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this seems a lot like the should i place gear on my sling before I unclip it thread, and we all know how that one ended.
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dingus
Aug 19, 2010, 4:47 PM
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jt512 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. [...] I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. Your high IQ would have been easier to imagine if you had correctly explained how you clipped in the first place. But, hey, thanks for blaming us for misunderstanding your ambiguous post. Jay
I had no problem understanding his post.
DMT
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jt512
Aug 19, 2010, 5:18 PM
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dingus wrote: jt512 wrote: Lbrombach wrote: OK, imagine for a moment that my IQ is actually average or above. [...] I clipped the rope before ever taking the draw off my loop. Your high IQ would have been easier to imagine if you had correctly explained how you clipped in the first place. But, hey, thanks for blaming us for misunderstanding your ambiguous post. Jay I had no problem understanding his post. DMT
Great minds think alike.
Jay
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boku
Aug 19, 2010, 6:20 PM
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I've also done this as an experiment. I had a draw clipped to the rope and to my left front gear loop when I left the ground. The draw was long enough so that there was still slack when the rope was tight, so it wouldn't have ripped the gear loop.
Anyhow, at the bolt I just unclipped the draw from the gera loop and clipped it to the hanger.
Overall, it didn't seem to hold any advantage, so I didn't bother trying it again. Yes, I only had to reach for the hanger once. But the weight of the rope, and its friction as it ran through the biner, made it a pretty tough reach. I think it is generally easier to do it the usual way.
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kaizen
Aug 19, 2010, 6:35 PM
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I'm a bit confused here - you're having a hard time reaching the rope-end biner on a clip, but no troubles reaching the hanger to place the draw? I've personally never encountered this scenario, and can really only see if the rope-end carabiner is in some sort of a feature, blocking access. If that's the case, than I can actually see the benefit of your idea, although that would be an odd bolt placement for a sport route.
Anyway, I would agree with the posters above: extra friction and weight trying to clip, and potential to trash a gear loop would outweigh any positives, except in that very low probability scenario above.
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