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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 8, 2010, 2:53 AM
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dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT
Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil.
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guangzhou
Oct 8, 2010, 3:13 AM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil.
Excellent answer. And some of them also don't tie in properly.
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Express
Oct 8, 2010, 3:24 AM
Post #53 of 84
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The BD video has failed to change my opinion on the use of daisys for cleaning. Use them correctly and you'll be fine.
Simply don't clip it so that your biner could pull though if the pocket blows, and don't forget a redundant attachment to the other bolt (assuming a sport route). And, of course, don't use if for any loading that could become dynamic.
Keep your cleaning setup both static and SRENE and it'll be all good.
If you load it gently, you're never going to hit the 5kN pocket strength, let alone the 22kN break strength of the whole strand. Do it static and you'll be loading the pocket with body weight (less than 1kN).
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majid_sabet
Oct 8, 2010, 4:10 AM
Post #54 of 84
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A short one meter of dynamic climbing rope can reduce the shock load significantly in event of a belayer falls off the edge on to his/her anchor. Falling on a static material such as daisy are bad thing. many climbers here argue that falling on the anchor or slip and fall never happens to them but accident record in I&A forum says the opposite of they believe. Now the $2 question they always ask is this; WFT is safe in event of a climber falls off his anchor .
Again, based on drop test, only industrial grade 1" daisy ( used in some rescue operations) Purcell prussic and or tying via dynamic rope will survive the fall factor above 1.25. Everything else could FAIL and you may DIE.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 8, 2010, 4:11 AM)
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bearbreeder
Oct 8, 2010, 4:58 AM
Post #55 of 84
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majid_sabet wrote: A short one meter of dynamic climbing rope can reduce the shock load significantly in event of a belayer falls off the edge on to his/her anchor. Falling on a static material such as daisy are bad thing. many climbers here argue that falling on the anchor or slip and fall never happens to them but accident record in I&A forum says the opposite of they believe. Now the $2 question they always ask is this; WFT is safe in event of a climber falls off his anchor . Again, based on drop test, only industrial grade 1" daisy ( used in some rescue operations) Purcell prussic and or tying via dynamic rope will survive the fall factor above 1.25. Everything else could FAIL and you may DIE.
camp found less than 5 kN in their lab test in a FF2 WITH a harness with a daisy ... do any of the other tests introduce a harness in the system?
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spikeddem
Oct 8, 2010, 3:18 PM
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Doesn't FF get thrown out the window when one is only looking at a purely static connection to the anchor? Assuming negligble stretch, isn't falling four feet on two feet of material the same as falling four feet on four feet of material?
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dingus
Oct 8, 2010, 8:38 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil.
A daisy may or may not be part of a smart climber's arsenal. Its certainly no requirement to use a daisy in order to be a smart climber though.
And for the uses spoken about in this thread - they're not a great option.
DMT
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easton
Oct 8, 2010, 10:52 PM
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dingus wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. A daisy may or may not be part of a smart climber's arsenal. Its certainly no requirement to use a daisy in order to be a smart climber though. And for the uses spoken about in this thread - they're not a great option. DMT
So how do you tie in with the rope and still thread it through to rap off of a route?
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tomtom
Oct 9, 2010, 3:22 AM
Post #59 of 84
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dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT
I'm calling BS. I bet there are situations where you don't "just tie in with the rope."
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dingus
Oct 9, 2010, 3:24 AM
Post #60 of 84
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tomtom wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT I'm calling BS. I bet there are situations where you don't "just tie in with the rope."
Sure there lots of times when I've anchored in other ways. But mostly I just tie in with the rope, when it comes to multipitch trad.
Cheerio
DMT
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socalclimber
Oct 9, 2010, 12:34 PM
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dingus wrote: tomtom wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT I'm calling BS. I bet there are situations where you don't "just tie in with the rope." Sure there lots of times when I've anchored in other ways. But mostly I just tie in with the rope, when it comes to multipitch trad. Cheerio DMT
I wonder how long it will take to convince people that there are better options for anchoring in then using something static?
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dingus
Oct 9, 2010, 1:11 PM
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easton wrote: dingus wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. A daisy may or may not be part of a smart climber's arsenal. Its certainly no requirement to use a daisy in order to be a smart climber though. And for the uses spoken about in this thread - they're not a great option. DMT So how do you tie in with the rope and still thread it through to rap off of a route?
Most often a standard shoulder length sling girthed to my belay loop. Sometimes a draw. Sometimes a Yates adjustable daisy, hehe. Those should be in order of frequency I guess. I'm willing to assume the risk of the static load for the purpose of rapping convenience.
Cheers
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Oct 9, 2010, 1:13 PM)
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altelis
Oct 9, 2010, 3:26 PM
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dingus wrote: easton wrote: dingus wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. A daisy may or may not be part of a smart climber's arsenal. Its certainly no requirement to use a daisy in order to be a smart climber though. And for the uses spoken about in this thread - they're not a great option. DMT So how do you tie in with the rope and still thread it through to rap off of a route? Most often a standard shoulder length sling girthed to my belay loop. Sometimes a draw. Sometimes a Yates adjustable daisy, hehe. Those should be in order of frequency I guess. I'm willing to assume the risk of the static load for the purpose of rapping convenience. Cheers DMT
I think that this is where some though certainly not ALL the hubub comes about from. There are a lot of sport climbers who use a daisy to get themselves a comfortable distance from the anchor, lean onto and weight the daisy, thread the anchor to rap or to get lowered, tie back in, and are on their way. Static is always weighted, nobody is climbing above the anchor, nobody is getting belayed up, etc. Is this the best solution? No. Is it as dangerous as using it as a tether for multipitch? No.
So these sport climbers think "hey I tether with a daisy in my anchor", nothing wrong with that. And talk PAST people anchoring in to a multipitch anchor.
THAT said, I see my fair share of people using a daisy for multipitch trad. Foolish.
I use my daisy like I mentioned above to anchor into 2 bolts to thread a sport anchor when QD's are an awkward length. I'm super anal about loading the daisy while the rope is still on belay and keeping it loaded. I know its not the best solution, but I believe it is plenty safe for that purpose. That said, when I got my wife into the sport we bought her a PAS because she isn't going to aid. I suppose I'll probably get a PAS one of these days for sport....
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roy_hinkley_jr
Oct 9, 2010, 5:14 PM
Post #64 of 84
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altelis wrote: THAT said, I see my fair share of people using a daisy for multipitch trad. Foolish.
The only thing foolish are the people who insist that it's dangerous. Never mind there nobody has ever cited a case of a daisy breaking. Certainly much safer than adjustable daisies. Pretending that a FF2 on nylon runner is better than a static daisy is simply ignorant. Anchoring with the rope isn't always the best answer either. The fear mongering over silly things like this doesn't help anybody. Merely holier than thou safety nazis preaching nonsense. Climbers should focus on things that matter, like never taking a FF2 on an anchor no matter what you connect with.
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Lazlo
Oct 9, 2010, 5:49 PM
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I intentionally clip between pockets (over the bar tack) for the express purpose of one day running into an RC.com-er and being able to enjoy this debate at my home crag.
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moose_droppings
Oct 9, 2010, 6:51 PM
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Along with the dangerous daisy is the dreaded rethreaded figure of 8 knot, also known as the figure 8 loop follow through.
If someone were to fail to rethread the knot back into itself, it becomes a death knot which can slip right out of your belay loop.
A little more awareness of this death knot may force the rope companies to make a video showing the devilish dangers of an incomplete figure of 8 follow through knot.
The horror.
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Guran
Oct 11, 2010, 10:46 AM
Post #67 of 84
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It's easy:
Static for hanging
Dynamic for falling.
Know what yo're doing and live longer.
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guangzhou
Oct 12, 2010, 12:35 AM
Post #68 of 84
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Guran wrote: It's easy: Static for hanging Dynamic for falling. Know what yo're doing and live longer.
I've been known to hang on dynamic from time to time, does this mean I am going to die?
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dingus
Oct 12, 2010, 1:14 AM
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guangzhou wrote: Guran wrote: It's easy: Static for hanging Dynamic for falling. Know what yo're doing and live longer. I've been known to hang on dynamic from time to time, does this mean I am going to die?
With 100% certainty.
DMT
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Guran
Oct 12, 2010, 7:25 AM
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guangzhou wrote: Guran wrote: It's easy: Static for hanging Dynamic for falling. Know what yo're doing and live longer. I've been known to hang on dynamic from time to time, does this mean I am going to die?
Smart ass 
Ok I'll rephrase: Never fall on static.
A two feet fall is still a fall.
Don't worry about wether the static is a daisy, a sling, made of nylon or dyneema or wether it has knots. Hang from it if you want to but don't fall on the damn thing.
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jsaunders
Oct 12, 2010, 1:53 PM
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I clip into a biner on a power point with the rope via a clove hitch. I used to use a daisy chain until I learned that there are more problems than just double-clipping loops. First off, a single loop is 1 ply unlike a belay loop being 2 ply which is safer. Secondly, a sawing action occurs when you've girth hitched the belay loop with the daisy chain (or PAS) which has been listed as responsible for cutting a belay loop.
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kachoong
Oct 12, 2010, 2:09 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil.
Unless I'm climbing aid I don't even take a daisy to the crag.
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guangzhou
Oct 13, 2010, 12:41 AM
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kachoong wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. Unless I'm climbing aid I don't even take a daisy to the crag.
How much aid do you do in Texas. With that said, when I climbed at Enchanted rocks, I didn't take a rope, my partner and I soloed most of the slab routes there.
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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 1:35 PM
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guangzhou wrote: kachoong wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. Unless I'm climbing aid I don't even take a daisy to the crag. How much aid do you do in Texas. With that said, when I climbed at Enchanted rocks, I didn't take a rope, my partner and I soloed most of the slab routes there.
Then why did you need a partner?
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kachoong
Oct 13, 2010, 1:42 PM
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guangzhou wrote: kachoong wrote: roy_hinkley_jr wrote: dingus wrote: I just tie in with the rope. DMT Sometimes a good solution. But smart climbers have many options. And that includes using daisy's, at times and carefully. Dumb climbers call daisy's the devil. Unless I'm climbing aid I don't even take a daisy to the crag. How much aid do you do in Texas. With that said, when I climbed at Enchanted rocks, I didn't take a rope, my partner and I soloed most of the slab routes there.
Why would I aid climb in Texas?
You soloed most of the routes on the backside? There's at least 20 routes up to .12-
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