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charley
Oct 19, 2010, 1:32 PM
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I saw this on facebook and other climbing sites. Not sure where to post it so here it is. I think climbers on the east coast need to support this.
Liz and I have a concern that needs to be brought to the attention of those of you who climb at Muir Valley.
Over the past seven years, your donations have covered only a minuscule portion the expenses in running this place. A relatively few kind souls have donated way more than their share – both in time and money; but the vast majority don't drop a penny in the box or lift a finger to help. It boils down to this: Liz and I have been shouldering, and continue to pay, the bulk of the expenses associated with providing climbing access for you at Muir. However, as the number of visitors has grown astronomically, so have the expenses - way beyond our expectations. We are no longer willing to continue putting the amount of time and money into Muir that 18,000 visitor days per year requires (more than 1000 last weekend alone).
The paltry donations last weekend (averaging about 13 cents per visitor) did not even cover the expenses in cleaning up the unbelievable mess left in the restrooms (and no, you really don't want to know!) let alone the normal day-to-day expenses.
If you would like to see Muir continue to be open to climbing, then please help to defray our expenses that directly relate to climbing activities in the Valley. There are boxes at the parking lot kiosk and trailhead for donations to Friends of Muir Valley and a PayPal link at http://www.friendsofmuirvalley.com/index.php?page=6
Thank you for your understanding.
Rick and Liz Weber - Muir Valley owners
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spikeddem
Oct 19, 2010, 2:21 PM
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This should be linked to the "article" on the front page.
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gte921n
Oct 19, 2010, 2:49 PM
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Thank you for the reminder. These guys provide an amazing service. I was there several weekends ago and was shocked with how well the area was maintained. I just donated.
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camhead
Oct 19, 2010, 2:54 PM
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Bump.
My wife and I "donated" some cash at the raffle a couple weeks ago at Muir; we'll have to donate more. I've seen quite a few examples of private landowners allowing and wrestling with climbing access on their property, and the Webers are definitely the best-case-scenario for this.
If everyone who visited Muir paid $5 per visit, the owners would be rolling in cash. That's less than a day pass to any climbing gym, with an obviously way better experience. So pay up, hordes of climbers waiting in line at Bruise Bros.!
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rock_fencer
Oct 19, 2010, 3:03 PM
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i havent been to Muir or RRG in a year but next time i'm up consider it done. I also do not know how the parking works for you guys, but would you consider a $3 parking fee for the day per car to be an effective form? It has been shown that the hordes are not self regulating sadly.
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Lbrombach
Oct 19, 2010, 4:11 PM
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Not that I've been to bunches of places, but Muir is the best maintained climbing area I've ever seen. Not to mention the parking lot and bathroom built for us. I drop a 5 in the box every time I go, but will have to up that. And it's sad that more people don't appreciate the awesomeness of the Muir and the Webers... $5...less than a frikkin Miguels bean bowl and the enjoyment lasts longer.
I'd happily suggest they institute an online registration thing that costs a few bucks. Violators are trespassers.
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livinonasandbar
Oct 19, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Guilty... that's me. And I feel like a chump. Rick and Liz are the BEST and deserve better treatment.
I just sent them $25. And, I copied their note into an email and forwarded it to all my climbing friends with a challenge to match my donation.
Perhaps you'll do the same?
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captainstatic
Oct 19, 2010, 7:28 PM
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Here is a hot link to the FOMV donation page - http://www.friendsofmuirvalley.com/index.php?page=6
Friends of Muir Valley is a Local Climbing Organization that is separate from Muir Valley, LLC that owns the property. The reason that any private land owner would choose not to charge for climbing is that by collecting a fee they might forfeit protection from liability under Kentucky's Recreational Use Statute.
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Lbrombach
Oct 19, 2010, 7:37 PM
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captainstatic wrote: Here is a hot link to the FOMV donation page - http://www.friendsofmuirvalley.com/index.php?page=6 Friends of Muir Valley is a Local Climbing Organization that is separate from Muir Valley, LLC that owns the property. The reason that any private land owner would choose not to charge for climbing is that by collecting a fee they might forfeit protection from liability under Kentucky's Recreational Use Statute.
I see..makes sense. Then perhaps pay for parking could be a way to go. Or we can all just voluntarily stop being cheapskates.
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notapplicable
Oct 20, 2010, 1:03 AM
Post #11 of 26
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spikeddem wrote: This should be linked to the "article" on the front page.
^Damn right.^
What a mess. I can't even imagine what a thousand people at a crag would look like, but the thought is disgusting.
If you climb at Muir, do the right thing and donate. If you and your brah's skip the drum circle brewskis at Miguel's one night and put that cash in the box, it can make a big difference.
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lostcause
Oct 20, 2010, 1:42 PM
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Registered: Apr 22, 2004
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I tried to donate online yesterday with the PayPal link but I received an error message. It could be a problem with my PayPal account or user error but curious if anyone else has had this issue before I try again.
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livinonasandbar
Oct 20, 2010, 2:31 PM
Post #14 of 26
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lostcause wrote: I tried to donate online yesterday with the PayPal link but I received an error message. It could be a problem with my PayPal account or user error but curious if anyone else has had this issue before I try again.
I had no trouble with PayPal yesterday...
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j_ung
Oct 20, 2010, 3:02 PM
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Registered: Nov 21, 2003
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captainstatic wrote: Here is a hot link to the FOMV donation page - http://www.friendsofmuirvalley.com/index.php?page=6 Friends of Muir Valley is a Local Climbing Organization that is separate from Muir Valley, LLC that owns the property. The reason that any private land owner would choose not to charge for climbing is that by collecting a fee they might forfeit protection from liability under Kentucky's Recreational Use Statute.
This is correct. Here's KY's Recreational Use Statute. Section 6b is the relevant bit:
In reply to: (6) Nothing in this section limits in any way any liability which otherwise exists... (b) For injury suffered in any case where the owner of land charges the person or persons who enter or go on the land for the recreational use thereof...
I'm not sure how a parking fee might or might not fall within that area, however, I'm sure the Webers are pretty up on the laws that pertain to them, and have come to the conclusion that donations are the only way to go. I suppose they could also cut way back on the maintenance they do there, but that's not really how they roll.
People need to step up. I don't even really climb at the red at all, but I'm sure i will again sometime, and Muir Valley will be high on the list of places to go. I'll go donate some cash.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Oct 20, 2010, 3:07 PM)
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Lbrombach
Oct 22, 2010, 9:21 PM
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Threw in some extra. Now everyone else, quit saying "I should get around to that" and just do it. It just takes a minute. And it's payday.
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caughtinside
Oct 22, 2010, 10:57 PM
Post #17 of 26
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thanks for posting this, it's a great opportunity for people who use the area to step up and show they can be responsible and help maintain the place.
I spent a couple days there last year and it was great, really fun climbing. I just donated, you should too if you have climbed there.
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ACJ
Oct 25, 2010, 3:01 PM
Post #18 of 26
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Registered: Oct 25, 2008
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Had to see this coming. I would welcome a fee since it would hopefully keep people away and provide the owners with plenty of money for providing such a great place.
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USnavy
Oct 25, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #19 of 26
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I just donated some. RRG is an awesome place, I hope things work out. Some fee of some sort may be understandable but there are things to consider. Say someone wants to spend three months climbing at the RRG (not uncommon). Say they are living out of their truck (also not uncommon). Is it fair for them to pay $900 in parking (three months multiplied by $10 a day)? That’s a pretty ludicrous parking fee.
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ACJ
Oct 25, 2010, 5:02 PM
Post #21 of 26
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j_ung wrote: There are dozens of other places to climb at the Red. But that's beside the point. Muir Valley can't charge a fee without (probably) opening itself up to the same liability, for example, a climbing gym might face.
Yeah there are tons of places to climb. I wonder if they have ever chatted with the folks at horseshoe canyon ranch. I would hate for it to end up like HCR, but they seem to have the liability issue under control?
I think $5 a day to be there is totally reasonable. We all know tons of climbers would still skimp out on it but that isn't much to ask. The AVERAGE climber is probably going out for a weekend, no need to cater to the rock monsters living out of their vehicle.
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ACJ
Oct 25, 2010, 5:08 PM
Post #22 of 26
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Registered: Oct 25, 2008
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A season pass is also a feasible option for the locals who would be bummed if it's their favorite spot.
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CliffDestructo
Oct 25, 2010, 8:03 PM
Post #23 of 26
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USnavy wrote: I just donated some. RRG is an awesome place, I hope things work out. Some fee of some sort may be understandable but there are things to consider. Say someone wants to spend three months climbing at the RRG (not uncommon). Say they are living out of their truck (also not uncommon). Is it fair for them to pay $900 in parking (three months multiplied by $10 a day)? That’s a pretty ludicrous parking fee.
If you can't pay don't play. Go one of the many crags on public land and climb for free.
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spikeddem
Oct 25, 2010, 8:19 PM
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CliffDestructo wrote: USnavy wrote: I just donated some. RRG is an awesome place, I hope things work out. Some fee of some sort may be understandable but there are things to consider. Say someone wants to spend three months climbing at the RRG (not uncommon). Say they are living out of their truck (also not uncommon). Is it fair for them to pay $900 in parking (three months multiplied by $10 a day)? That’s a pretty ludicrous parking fee. If you can't pay don't play. Go one of the many crags on public land and climb for free.
What the hell kind of argument is that, CD? USNavy was pointing out how locals and similar folk would get potentially screwed by a flat rate with no annual payment option. It sounds like your opinion of "if you can't pay don't play" is based upon your personal income, which is a pretty arbitrary and horseshit way to base a parking fee. What if it was $100 per day? Would you consider that to be ludicrous? Yeah? Well, that's exactly what USNavy is getting at.
In case you're really trying to just communicate the (worthless&moot) point that owners of private land can charge as much as they want...well...see the thing about that being a worthless and moot point.
Off-topic from the above, one thing to keep in mind is the sense of assholeishness one gets upon starting to pay for something. If people are paying a fee, they might start to feel entitled to being cleaned-up after and such. See, for example, assholes in my town that leave trash all over the place.
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CliffDestructo
Oct 26, 2010, 3:37 AM
Post #25 of 26
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You should not expect to get something for free if its on private land
If you're living out of your truck and dirtbagging it you are choosing to do so and the land owners owe you nothing. They are climbers too I guess and would, could understand that life style and might have a special fee for Dirtbagging climbers or a yearly parking fee. But to go onto someones land and not "donate" for the cause is horrible.
It seems to me that some of this population has a sense of entitlement already and is making hard for this land owner to keep up the goodwill.
And it seems that climbers aren't able to police themselves and have someone stand up and say "hey slap a fiver into the can and stop messing up this piece of land" aka pick up your tape , trash dogs shit etc.
Please put as much energy as you have by coming at me while you're out at the crag to keep people in line to keep this area open and the landowners happy
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