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acorneau
Oct 29, 2010, 12:00 AM
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Howdy folks,
Looking to get peoples opinions on both the DMM 3CU's and the Wired Bliss TCU's. I'm already a long-time Metolius TCU/FCU owner and would like to get a different brand TCU/3CU to add flexibility to the rack.
NOTE: To head off all the "Just get Camalots, they're the best" and "Aliens are the shiz-nit" people, I'm not interested in either of those, so if that's all you've got to add then SHUT the HELL UP!
Now, on to the comparisons. Here's a brief summary of what I know about both brands...
Common between both:
Both have 13.75 cam angle vs. Metolius 13.25
Both have U-stem, which i prefer
Both have solid reputations
DMM advantages:
6 sizes vs. WB's 5 sizes
Built-in extendable sling
Cam stops are rated to 10kN
Awesome DMM quality
Wired Bliss advantages:
~$45 per cam vs. DMM's $50/cam
Softer 6061 aluminum cam lobes (more grippy)
Lighter weight (5 WB = 13oz. versus 14.5oz. for 5 DMM)
Made in the USA
So, for those of you that have tried out and/or own either brand, what made you choose that brand over the other? Looking forward to some good info.
[edit for typos]
(This post was edited by acorneau on Oct 29, 2010, 12:29 AM)
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snoopy138
Oct 29, 2010, 1:14 AM
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acorneau wrote: and "Aliens are the shiz-nit" people, I'm not interested in either of those
your loss.
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acorneau
Oct 29, 2010, 1:40 AM
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snoopy138 wrote: acorneau wrote: and "Aliens are the shiz-nit" people, I'm not interested in either of those your loss.
Let's see...
- half-assed brazing causing complete cam failure
- incorrectly drilled axle holes causing lopsided camming angles
- generally shitty quality control
Oh yeah, and they aren't in business anymore.
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moose_droppings
Oct 29, 2010, 5:15 AM
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Your going to have a little (really little) bit more overlap with the DMM's. Also, if you buy the DMM's as a set at GearExpress they're only $40.83 a cam.
I went with the Metolius offset TCU's instead of more/different TCU's since they work well around here. They're slightly higher ($41.99) when you get the set. Are they not a good option on your rack? Just asking.
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acorneau
Oct 29, 2010, 2:20 PM
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acorneau wrote: snoopy138 wrote: acorneau wrote: and "Aliens are the shiz-nit" people, I'm not interested in either of those your loss. Let's see... - half-assed brazing causing complete cam failure - incorrectly drilled axle holes causing lopsided camming angles - generally shitty quality control Oh yeah, and they aren't in business anymore.
And one more thing, Aliens aren't three-lobed cams!
[I hate it when you think of the best reply hours after the conversation.]
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kachoong
Oct 29, 2010, 4:42 PM
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It seems the DMM has a slightly narrower head. I like the broader range of the WB to cover 10-33mm with one less cam. Both however have a great advantage over BD for those who winter climb. With gloves on it's easier to plug by putting a finger through the trigger (as opposed to the two-finger trigger) and I think the DMM have a slightly larger space for this than both WB and Metolius.
[edit] Looks like I was wrong about the range. DMM goes from 13-41mm in six cams and WB 10-33mm in five cams. So, as you said, similar for each size but one extra for DMM.
(This post was edited by kachoong on Oct 29, 2010, 4:48 PM)
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joeforte
Oct 29, 2010, 5:41 PM
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I have not used WB, but I do use DMM TCUs to supplement my Metolius. The DMMs have a nice big overlap between each of them. Often, two sizes can sufficiently fit the same size placement. This makes a set almost act as doubles by itself, but also means you have to carry more cams (though not as many as if you were actually carrying doubles.) They feel robust, and have caught some big falls of mine. The cam stops feel really solid as well. I actually like them better than my Metolius ultralights, which I find have some serious gaps in their set. Often times I'll run into a placement where one size will not fit, and the next size down is tipped out.
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irregularpanda
Oct 29, 2010, 5:55 PM
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acorneau wrote: DMM advantages: 6 sizes vs. WB's 5 sizes Built-in extendable sling Cam stops are rated to 10kN Awesome DMM quality Wired Bliss advantages: ~$45 per cam vs. DMM's $50/cam Softer 6061 aluminum cam lobes (more grippy) Lighter weight (5 WB = 13oz. versus 14.5oz. for 5 DMM) Made in the USA
We can add to the list, WB cams feel great. Seriously, the action is so buttery smooth, they're perfect.
I don't have 3cu's to compare to, but love my WB. Have you had a chance to play with a set of each, side by side?
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boadman
Oct 29, 2010, 6:28 PM
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If you prefer u-stem cams, you're off the list of people who's opinions I pay attention to.
:-)
Actually, I've used the DMM ones & the wired bliss ones. I like them both. I like the DMM stem/axle attachment, it rotates, which helps prevent walking which is pretty key for those small units.
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acorneau
Oct 30, 2010, 2:38 AM
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Billcoe: Totems aren't 3-lobe cams, but thanks.
Moose: I've never had a need for offset cams, and although I can get a Metolius pro-deal I'm looking for a little variety of brands.
Joeforte: thanks for your feedback, great info.
Irregularpanda: No, I don't have access to handle them myself, though I wish I could.
Boadman: thanks for the reply and the info.
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billcoe_
Oct 30, 2010, 3:48 AM
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Why do you limit your search to 3 cams units?
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irregularpanda
Oct 30, 2010, 3:53 AM
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boadman wrote: Actually, I've used the DMM ones & the wired bliss ones. I like them both. I like the DMM stem/axle attachment, it rotates, which helps prevent walking which is pretty key for those small units.
Interesting. So you're saying the stem rotates freely around the axle? I see this as helping to keep the cams "properly" oriented and still allow for flexibility in horizontal placements or walkable placements. This is definitely something I have to watch out for with my Metolius TCU's.
How does this compare with the WB "free floating axle"? I've never been quite sure about what they mean when they say that.
http://www.wiredblissusa.com/Specs.html
Either way, acorneau, if you have a metolius bro-deal, and you'd rather have something else.....I love my wired bliss cams. but I don't have any problem with metolius (I have a full set, and want most of another full set). When the tcu's get gunked up, I just soap and water them, then spray with wd40 and they are good as new. If you have a pro deal and the metolius range is basically identical to the WB cams, then why not just go for the DMMs?
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irregularpanda
Oct 30, 2010, 3:56 AM
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billcoe_ wrote: Why do you limit your search to 3 cams units?
Short answer: They rock, and have unique placement capabilities that are unattainable by even the best small 4 cam units.
Edited to not sound like an a-hole. in my opinion.
(This post was edited by irregularpanda on Oct 30, 2010, 4:00 AM)
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boadman
Oct 30, 2010, 5:57 AM
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irregularpanda wrote: boadman wrote: Actually, I've used the DMM ones & the wired bliss ones. I like them both. I like the DMM stem/axle attachment, it rotates, which helps prevent walking which is pretty key for those small units. Interesting. So you're saying the stem rotates freely around the axle? I see this as helping to keep the cams "properly" oriented and still allow for flexibility in horizontal placements or walkable placements. This is definitely something I have to watch out for with my Metolius TCU's. How does this compare with the WB "free floating axle"? I've never been quite sure about what they mean when they say that. http://www.wiredblissusa.com/Specs.html
The wired bliss cams that I used were really old, and it was a few years ago, I don't remember them having a free floating axle though.
The DMM axle does allow the stem to rotate independently from the cams.
Having different brands of small cams makes a huge difference, in my opinion. They're all slightly different sizes, and in tiny cams that have tiny ranges, small differences in size can make a big difference in the quality of the placements. I actually don't like the U-stems, because a lot of the placements in the finger cracks I climb in granite are in pin scars. The u-stems often force you to place the cams with the stem pointing straight out. The u-stems have always seemed more difficult to place and clean to me too.
I carry metolius and aliens. I'd consider buying some dmms &/or WC zeros if I buy more toys. The lobes on my aliens are starting to get pretty mangled after 12 years of use.
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billcoe_
Oct 30, 2010, 3:11 PM
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boadman wrote: Having different brands of small cams makes a huge difference, in my opinion. They're all slightly different sizes, and in tiny cams that have tiny ranges, small differences in size can make a big difference in the quality of the placements.
5 stars post, especially for aid.
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malcolm777b
Oct 30, 2010, 9:09 PM
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acorneau wrote: NOTE: To head off all the "Just get Camalots, they're the best" and "Aliens are the shiz-nit" people, I'm not interested in either of those, so if that's all you've got to add then SHUT the HELL UP!
Why don't you like the Camalots? Have you gotten some mileage on them? The reason I ask, is I originally didn't care for the C3s, instead plugging an Alien, TCU, or Master Cam. Recently though, I "figured them out", and now love them. I think they would add more flexibility to your rack than a WB or DMM 3CU ever could since they fit spots that none of those cams ever could.
Not to mention on aid they are like magic....so much so that I almost always backclean them.
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acorneau
Oct 30, 2010, 9:31 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: Why don't you like the Camalots? Have you gotten some mileage on them?
I generally don't care for single-stem cams, but I really like my U-stem Metolius cams. The DMM 3CU's and the WB TCU's are the closest things to what I know I already like.
I haven't used the C3's but since they have the same "two finger required" trigger as other single-stem cams I'm guessing the DMM's or WB's would be more to my liking.
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malcolm777b
Oct 30, 2010, 11:37 PM
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acorneau wrote: malcolm777b wrote: Why don't you like the Camalots? Have you gotten some mileage on them? I generally don't care for single-stem cams, but I really like my U-stem Metolius cams. The DMM 3CU's and the WB TCU's are the closest things to what I know I already like. I haven't used the C3's but since they have the same "two finger required" trigger as other single-stem cams I'm guessing the DMM's or WB's would be more to my liking.
You said you wanted to add flexibility to your rack...getting a completely different cam design is going to give you maximum flexibility. Obviously, it's your call, but to me it just doesn't make sense ignoring the versatility of a different design because it requires an extra finger to retract. That is, assuming you didn't lose 3 fingers in an accident, which I would then understand your reasoning.
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malcolm777b
Oct 30, 2010, 11:43 PM
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acorneau wrote: I generally don't care for single-stem cams, but I really like my U-stem Metolius cams. The DMM 3CU's and the WB TCU's are the closest things to what I know I already like.
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that C3 Camalots are NOT single stem cams.
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joeforte
Oct 31, 2010, 3:13 AM
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irregularpanda wrote: If you have a pro deal and the metolius range is basically identical to the WB cams, then why not just go for the DMMs?
He stated this in his initial post. DMM and WB have a larger camming angle than metolius, and therefore a larger range per cam. The only thing I dislike about my metolius ultralights is their small range. It's really hard to get used to when you're used to using aliens. It is this smaller camming angle that give them their higher holding power, so like everything, it is a tradeoff. When I climb hard thin cracks, I usually carry both aliens and tcus for this reason. I believe he is going after something similar.
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yodadave
Oct 31, 2010, 1:00 PM
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I'll add my 2 cents
Both are great units but if money is not a major factor id go DMM. They look and feel super slick. The WBs are bombproof and i've used ~20 yr old ones that still feel great but DMM just makes really slick stuff.
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Bolter
Nov 2, 2010, 5:28 AM
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Wired Bliss have an axle that is not fixed to the eye on the wire stems.
I have new ones and old ones. You can turn the axle with your fingers.
The old and newer metolius axles are fixed to the eye.
I checked my solid stem friends too. The axles turns on most. I guess the others are too dirty or a bit of sticking with older units.
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EvilMonkey
Nov 2, 2010, 11:58 AM
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i've got a few 3cu's on my rack. the rest are all metolius. the 3cu's are great. construction seems superior to my metolius cams. these things always get plugged b4 my tcu's. the extendable slings are nice for keeping weight off the rack (less quickdraws), although sometimes the sewn part of the sling gets caught up on the stem when you're extending it. that can be a slight pain in the ass sometimes. small trade-off, imo. haven't used the wb's.
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acorneau
Nov 2, 2010, 3:53 PM
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Howdy folks,
Still weighing the merits of both sets. It seems both have great attributes and it's making it tough to make a decision!
I went through the trouble of converting all the published cam-range spec's to millimeters and put them on a chart along with the my Metolius TCU's. (I'm assuming that Metolius hasn't changed their cam sizes since I bought mine back in '98/'99.)
Here's the chart...
This brings up a couple of interesting observations...
1. The WB sizes are almost exactly the same as the Metolius TCU's. That's good for knowing what cam fits a given size crack but bad for diversifying and overlapping the rack's sizes.
2. The DMM's have much more overlap within the set, which is kind of nice.
3. The largest 3CU (#1.75) extends the upper range more than the Met. #4 and WB #1.5 TCU's, which is also nice.
4. The smallest 3CU (#0) covers the same ground as the Metolius #1 or WB #0.5, leaving the Met. #0 and WB #0.4 uncovered (a size I don't presently have but would like to get).
5. Through various website deals and "special offers" it looks like both DMM's and WB's price-per-cam would end up being about the same.
I hope you guys understand that I'm not really looking for someone to tell me what to buy, as I'll figure it out for myself (eventually). I'm hoping this will be a good informational thread for anyone that might be going through the same decision as me or might be buying their first set of three-lobed cams.
PS: Sorry for the lame-looking chart but I don't use spread sheets on a normal basis.
(This post was edited by acorneau on Nov 2, 2010, 3:53 PM)
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