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James_Otey
Nov 11, 2010, 5:57 AM
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curt wrote: James_Otey wrote: Is it harder to do the crux of a route, or to do the crux while locking off midway on micro crimps to clip a rope? The latter only indicates a very poorly bolted route. Curt
"To prevent grounding, we needed to place a bolt that is very difficult to clip"
It's actually imporatant that you've climbed on the route before you judge bolt placements.
I wish everyone would stay positive for a respectful discussion, but apparently it's too much to ask for people not to attack you.
I was just trying to establish a beautiful climb for everyone to enjoy. This has gotten out of hand I guess.
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bennydh
Nov 11, 2010, 6:30 AM
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James_Otey wrote: curt wrote: James_Otey wrote: Is it harder to do the crux of a route, or to do the crux while locking off midway on micro crimps to clip a rope? The latter only indicates a very poorly bolted route. Curt "To prevent grounding, we needed to place a bolt that is very difficult to clip" It's actually imporatant that you've climbed on the route before you judge bolt placements. I wish everyone would stay positive for a respectful discussion, but apparently it's too much to ask for people not to attack you. I was just trying to establish a beautiful climb for everyone to enjoy. This has gotten out of hand I guess.
Its not really that out of hand, or negative. The route was already established as a tr... you added bolts to it so that you and others could lead an already established route. I'm sure climbers who would like to lead the route appreciate your contribution,
... but renaming it IS lame.
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James_Otey
Nov 11, 2010, 2:34 PM
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It never was really named. It's always just been "that black colored arete" that people climb on. To me it would be like renaming a route referred to as that "left slanting crack" once it was freed.
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curt
Nov 11, 2010, 3:19 PM
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James_Otey wrote: curt wrote: James_Otey wrote: Is it harder to do the crux of a route, or to do the crux while locking off midway on micro crimps to clip a rope? The latter only indicates a very poorly bolted route. Curt "To prevent grounding, we needed to place a bolt that is very difficult to clip" It's actually imporatant that you've climbed on the route before you judge bolt placements.
No it's not. I don't need to climb Supercrack to know it's a crack climb and I don't need to climb your route to know it's poorly bolted--you've already described it as such. If you really need to lock off mid way through the crux to clip a bolt, perhaps the route should have remained as a TR.
James_Otey wrote: I wish everyone would stay positive for a respectful discussion, but apparently it's too much to ask for people not to attack you.
I am being respectful, I'm simply not heaping the praise on you that you apparently think you deserve for your "accomplishment." No one is attacking you personally--you just don't seem to accept criticism very well.
Curt
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kaizen
Nov 11, 2010, 3:20 PM
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James_Otey wrote: It never was really named. It's always just been "that black colored arete" that people climb on. To me it would be like renaming a route referred to as that "left slanting crack" once it was freed.
Ahh now I see. This is probably where the confusion has occured. The feature itself is a black arete, but the route that has been freed on TR was also called "The Black Arete" as well. I'm not sure if you've seen any of the guides to the area, but they all list the route as "The Black Arete" and even provide grades for the line.
In the area, other routes that were previously only done as X-rated or TR have been subsequently bolted, and the name of the routes have stayed the same.
Ethics aside, while the proposed name is clever and even gave me a chuckle, The Black Arete just carries weight and history with it that a name like "Arete Style Dysfunction" could never live up to. It may be a dirty crag polluted by trains coming by every 5 minutes, but the feature (and the route that climbs it) is absolutely amazing.
EDIT: It's a proud send for sure - nice work.
(This post was edited by kaizen on Nov 11, 2010, 3:23 PM)
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James_Otey
Nov 11, 2010, 6:01 PM
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Curt, in hindsight I would say the route is perfectly bolted. I would never refrain from establishing a route just because it has a difficult and necessary clip in it. Sometimes clips are difficult- that's part of route climbing. The clip is very doable, it just makes the route a bit more difficult. Doesn't really seem like an issue.
I'm not here to spray about some "accomplishment," nor do I feel like quibbling about ethics anymore. And I do feel hurt when someone criticizes the nuances of my bolting effort without knowledge of the route. In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter to me though.
The whole purpose of this thread is to let people know that there is a beautiful new sport climb in Little Falls. I hope lots of people enjoy climbing it in the future despite what it is referred to as.
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curt
Nov 11, 2010, 7:04 PM
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James_Otey wrote: Curt, in hindsight I would say the route is perfectly bolted...
Somehow, that doesn't really surprise me.
James_Otey wrote: Sometimes clips are difficult- that's part of route climbing...
Thanks for explaining rock climbing to me.
Curt
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Adk
Nov 12, 2010, 12:52 AM
Post #33 of 48
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James_Otey wrote: It never was really named. It's always just been "that black colored arete" that people climb on. To me it would be like renaming a route referred to as that "left slanting crack" once it was freed.
To clear this up it's always been called "The Black Arete" Gary states this in his first post. It sounds like you are stretching for reason to rename....
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James_Otey
Nov 12, 2010, 3:49 AM
Post #35 of 48
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This has become ridiculous. I truly care most about the fact that there is a new route to be climbed on. Names, grades, and ethics have become disturbing. I don't care what people refer to a piece of rock as, I just care that people have a good time interacting with a cool piece of nature. Literally.
I would love to climb at Little Falls with anyone who would like to. Hopefully this petty discussion won't deter anyone. Perhaps it will. Let me know - I would be happy to share beta and have fun climbing with anyone who is respectful of other climbers.
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bredto
Nov 15, 2010, 2:51 AM
Post #37 of 48
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James-
Nice send and thanks for bolting it. Since it's a couple grades away from where I'm climbing I doubt I'll be getting on it any time soon (most likely ever).
Just wanted to show my support for your efforts. You were being completely reasonable and many people are crapping all over you. I very rarely view RC.com because it seems to be the norm here.
Although I've never established a route, I too was under the impression that first lead gets to name the route. Like I said before, you seem reasonable and even asked for feedback on the naming. If the local consensus was because of local history, ethics, etc that the name The Black Arete should remain, you wouldn't put up a big stink.
Thanks again.
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guangzhou
Nov 15, 2010, 3:59 AM
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bredto wrote: James- Nice send and thanks for bolting it. Since it's a couple grades away from where I'm climbing I doubt I'll be getting on it any time soon (most likely ever). Just wanted to show my support for your efforts. You were being completely reasonable and many people are crapping all over you. I very rarely view RC.com because it seems to be the norm here. Although I've never established a route, I too was under the impression that first lead gets to name the route. Like I said before, you seem reasonable and even asked for feedback on the naming. If the local consensus was because of local history, ethics, etc that the name The Black Arete should remain, you wouldn't put up a big stink. Thanks again.
Good on you. I agree, a load of people screaming and yelling about things they don't have anything to do with seems the norm here.
With the exception of beta on where to go, most conversations here are worthless.
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Adk
Nov 17, 2010, 3:47 PM
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guangzhou wrote: With the exception of beta on where to go, most conversations here are worthless.
You obviously have no clue about OUR local ethics. No one was screaming or yelling.
The area in question is the only area locally that can be bolted or will be bolted (until the land goes up for sale again)other than TR bolts at the island.
It's really great that The Black Arete is bolted.
It's one more step closer to someone leading it traditionally.
Can you imagine if someone bolted One over the Hill 5.12c? It wouldn't be the same....
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Arrogant_Bastard
Nov 17, 2010, 9:10 PM
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suprasoup wrote: In reply to: The route is significantly different as a lead climb as opposed to a TR. ?? I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this one. Did you guys bolt it in a zig zag or something? I don't think I've ever been on a route that was significantly different on lead than on TR other than the head game part. Supra
Assuming we're talking about Sport Climbing only.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Nov 17, 2010, 9:15 PM
Post #41 of 48
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James_Otey wrote: This has become ridiculous...
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less well-known is this situation: "Never get into an ethics discussion with a 5.9 trad climber on the internet".
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dreday3000
Nov 17, 2010, 9:22 PM
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James_Otey wrote: This has become ridiculous. I truly care most about the fact that there is a new route to be climbed on. Names, grades, and ethics have become disturbing. I don't care what people refer to a piece of rock as, I just care that people have a good time interacting with a cool piece of nature. Literally. I would love to climb at Little Falls with anyone who would like to. Hopefully this petty discussion won't deter anyone. Perhaps it will. Let me know - I would be happy to share beta and have fun climbing with anyone who is respectful of other climbers.
James, took a look at the photos on your profile page and looks like a great route. If I ever make it to Little Falls that'll be on the top of my list.
As far as I'm concerned, the name is Arete Style Dysfunction. Thanks for bolting it.
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sidepull
Nov 18, 2010, 4:17 PM
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Thoughts:
Looks like a fun route.
Props for reaching your goals.
Props for your work.
Probably should keep the original name.
Probably could have been bolted better.
Really the thread wasn't very hate-filled.
Probably could have thicker skin.
Keep climbing!
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Adk
Nov 18, 2010, 9:35 PM
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JUT780 
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mtnjohn
Nov 18, 2010, 10:41 PM
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By Otey's logic, The Black Arete was not bolted.
Arete Style Dysfunction was. They are, after all two different climbs.
If a climb has name then a climb has been named. I don't remeber Lynn Hill re-naming the nose after she freed it and I'm pretty sure it's a different experience freeing the nose, opposed to aiding sections of it. Not that I've done it...yet!
(This post was edited by mtnjohn on Nov 19, 2010, 2:27 AM)
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Arrogant_Bastard
Nov 18, 2010, 10:48 PM
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mtnjohn wrote: If a climb has name the a climb has been named.
That pretty much sums it all up.
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eddie_munster
Apr 30, 2011, 4:37 AM
Post #48 of 48
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James_Otey wrote: curt wrote: James_Otey wrote: Is it harder to do the crux of a route, or to do the crux while locking off midway on micro crimps to clip a rope? The latter only indicates a very poorly bolted route. Curt "To prevent grounding, we needed to place a bolt that is very difficult to clip" It's actually imporatant that you've climbed on the route before you judge bolt placements. I wish everyone would stay positive for a respectful discussion, but apparently it's too much to ask for people not to attack you. I was just trying to establish a beautiful climb for everyone to enjoy. This has gotten out of hand I guess.
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