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NJSlacker
Dec 13, 2010, 7:09 PM
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Hey all
So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it?
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 7:31 PM
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clo ... is the standard in the clothing industry ... which unfortunately has more mumbo jumbo that a scientology party
go here ...
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=18950
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hafilax
Dec 13, 2010, 8:34 PM
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NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it?
I'm not sure that a warmth rating for clothing would be all that meaningful. It depends so much on the actual weather and the activity level whereas sleeping bags are rated for a person sleeping in a tent with a certain R valued ground pad. Even then there is a lot of variation in how those are rated let alone variations between people. My GF will sleep in a -20C bag while I'm cozy in a -12C.
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jt512
Dec 13, 2010, 8:42 PM
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NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it?
Second hit on a google search: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/...nsulation-d_732.html
Jay
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bearbreeder
Dec 13, 2010, 11:29 PM
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hafilax wrote: The thicker it is, the warmer it will be. I'm not sure that a warmth rating for clothing would be all that meaningful. It depends so much on the actual weather and the activity level whereas sleeping bags are rated for a person sleeping in a tent with a certain R valued ground pad. Even then there is a lot of variation in how those are rated let alone variations between people. My GF will sleep in a -20C bag while I'm cozy in a -12C.
en-testing shows that the "average" female needs 5-10C more "rated" warmth than the "average" male
all bags do is provide insulation which is easily measured ... how much insulation you need depends on a lot of conditions, thats not as easily measured
kansas state has been providing ratings for decades to some outdoors retailers and the US miltary
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Dec 13, 2010, 11:30 PM)
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acorneau
Dec 14, 2010, 2:53 AM
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What, you haven't seen the "R-value" ratings on the tags?!?
Guess you need to look a little more upscale.
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mathew20
Dec 20, 2010, 11:13 AM
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Ed Hardy stuff is so horrible to look at that it almost makes me wish I were born without eyes. How anyone could WILLINGLY dress themselves in Ed Hardy is so beyond me that I've been spending hours and hours of good time.
------------
http://www.edhardysale.co/
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LostinMaine
Dec 20, 2010, 11:44 AM
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hafilax wrote: NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it? The thicker it is, the warmer it will be.
I really hope you don't believe that's true. This, in itself, ignores materials and construction. Otherwise we would all still be wearing winter suits like that kid in "A Christmas Story."
Edited to add image of cute little Randy.
(This post was edited by LostinMaine on Dec 20, 2010, 11:47 AM)
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bill413
Dec 20, 2010, 1:28 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: hafilax wrote: NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it? The thicker it is, the warmer it will be. I really hope you don't believe that's true. This, in itself, ignores materials and construction. Otherwise we would all still be wearing winter suits like that kid in "A Christmas Story." [image]http://natureforkids.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/randy-snow-suit-a-christmas-story-2-383x600-191x300.jpg[/image] Edited to add image of cute little Randy.
Looks like he could still move his arms. Needs another layer.
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carabiner96
Dec 20, 2010, 3:56 PM
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mathew20 wrote: Ed Hardy stuff is so horrible to look at that it almost makes me wish I were born without eyes. How anyone could WILLINGLY dress themselves in Ed Hardy is so beyond me that I've been spending hours and hours of good time. ------------ http://www.edhardysale.co/[/quote Wahoo!
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 20, 2010, 4:11 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: hafilax wrote: NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it? The thicker it is, the warmer it will be. I really hope you don't believe that's true.
Obviously if comparing different materials it won't hold true, but it is a good rule of thumb, especially when looking at down. It's a piece of knowledge that seems to elude most people in REI looking at puffys... the fill count is what most seem to focus on, yet they have no idea what it actually means. I'm sure there's a fair amount of "climbers" here that have no idea what loft is.
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LostinMaine
Dec 20, 2010, 5:03 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: LostinMaine wrote: hafilax wrote: NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it? The thicker it is, the warmer it will be. I really hope you don't believe that's true. Obviously if comparing different materials it won't hold true, but it is a good rule of thumb, especially when looking at down. It's a piece of knowledge that seems to elude most people in REI looking at puffys... the fill count is what most seem to focus on, yet they have no idea what it actually means. I'm sure there's a fair amount of "climbers" here that have no idea what loft is.
Agreed. However, superior construction using the same materials can make a thinner layer a better insulator. For example, take a puffy and simply bar tack through all layers every 4 inches and you kill its insulating value. Now baffle that same material and you allow it to perform as it was designed. The same applies to the fools insulating houses to R-90 without bridging trusses or studs. You get the same insulating effect using R-19 and bridging the construction material.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 20, 2010, 5:11 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: The same applies to the fools insulating houses to R-90 without bridging trusses or studs.
What a bunch of idiots!
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bearbreeder
Dec 20, 2010, 11:00 PM
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actually the quality and quantity of down fill is what really matters
baffling can help ... but not at the expense of more down
the recent BPL test shows quite a few sewn thru jackets performing basically as well as baffled ones
besides, just put a windshell over the jacket ...
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 21, 2010, 12:01 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: actually the quality and quantity of down fill is what really matters
Actually, it doesn't, for all intents and purposes. The fill quality only tells you loft per unit weight. Lower quality fill, within reason, provides the same warmth given the same loft of a higher quality fill; it will only weigh more. Quantity is implicit within the equation, as a lower quality fill will need more quantity to make a specific loft.
I've seen anecdotal claims that higher quality fill last longer, but I'd assume it has more to do with the quality of the outer material and people taking better care of more expensive jackets.
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kachoong
Dec 21, 2010, 12:02 AM
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jt512 wrote: NJSlacker wrote: Hey all So, I was wondering if there was any way to know definitively how warm cloths are going to be before you buy them and take them out into the field? Sleeping bags have warmth ratings, rain jackets have breath-ability and waterproof ratings. It seems like cloths (especially those designed for layering) should have some sort of rating, or am I just missing it? Second hit on a google search: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/...nsulation-d_732.html Jay
It's good to see that a onesie is so high on the rating scale.
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fx101
Jan 8, 2011, 2:05 AM
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It seems to me that the original poster wasn't only referring to down jackets.
As numerous people have mentioned, there are a lot of variables that contribute to "warmth."
The best way to understand warmth is to first understand the possible ways by which you can get cold.
The main way that climbers and alpinists tend to lose heat is through the conduction and convection losses that occur in the windchill effect. What happens is wind causes your body to lose the heat it generates more quickly than if there was no wind. If it's cold air we're talking about then that heat will begin to disappear and the temperature of your skin will begin to drop.
The second way is by radiation of heat away from your body combined with the conduction of heat from your body into a very cold medium. The temperature gradient then causes rapid heat loss.
What this boils down to is you get cold if your heat escapes whether from wind or by extremely cold temperatures.
If you are active, your body generates considerable heat. This is why many alpinists (excluding himalayan ascents) will wear only the standard baselayer, insulation layer, and softshell/gore-tex hard shell on an ascent. The insulating layer stops enough heat leaking that they are comfortable while the shell layer prevents wind from stealing heat.
It is therefore difficult to quantify clothing warmth because its ability to warm you up depends on the conditions outside. If I wear one hell of a thick wool sweater outside when it's -10C with no wind and I'm fine, I won't fare well if it's 0C with high winds. On the other hand, if I wore only a softshell when it's -20C outside with no wind, I will lose a ton of heat by conduction since I have no insulation.
As a rule of thumb, the insulating layer is divided into two mainly used categories:
-the fleece
-the technical insulating garment
Fleece of course comes in tons of variants, including variants with a windstopper membrane. In general, however, fleece warmth depends on the loft. A low loft fleece will be very smooth and thin, but thus not trap a lot of air against your body. As a standalone piece, a low loft fleece (100 weight or less) will keep you warm under activity down to about 50'ish. Maybe lower if you're doing something truly barbaric. A midweight fleece (around 200 weight) will then keep you warm to around 30F or so. Again, this is assuming no wind. There are higher loft versions out there but they will top out around 25-30F for standalone use.
Technical insulation garments (for instance, the Arc'Teryx Atom jackets) generally use some sort of synthetic or down fill to keep you warm. Many of these will also feature a membrane that blocks wind and are DWR treated (repels moisture). The most common technical synthetic insulation is primaloft, where 200g will equate to approx a 200 weight fleece in warmth, but with the membranes and fabrics will likely keep you warmer than the fleece equivalent. Down works in a similar way, where 800 fill is brutal and only suitable for parkas, 300'ish is used for equivalent but lighter weight insulation as compared to a 200 weight fleece. Keep in mind down doesn't keep you warm when wet.
When using with a gore-tex shell, a 200 weight fleece (or equivalent) insulation garment will keep you warm down to -20F temperatures assuming constant and intense exertion.
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bearbreeder
Jan 8, 2011, 2:13 AM
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60g/m of primaloft jacket is around the "warmth" of a 200 wt fleece
800 flll down us used on everything from light down sweaters to the marshmallow puffies on everest
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fx101
Jan 8, 2011, 2:16 AM
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Thank you for posting the g/m rating for the primaloft. I now realize that manufacturers more commonly list this rather than the total insulation.
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