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David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics.
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rainman0915


Jan 24, 2011, 10:57 PM
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David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics.
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http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/...ama-and-redbull.html

David Lama in 2009/2010 attempted to free climb compressor route with a red bull sponsored expedition. they had to turn back after weather turned bad. while on the route they placed numerous bolts very close to established natural belays and left 700m of fixed lines as well as a lot of garbage. Lama now plans to return with another red bull expedition and rap bolt the headwall(the full story is in the link above).

WTF?! is this where climbing is headed? the gym climbing community thinks its ok to to use sport climbing ethics in an alpine setting? just because u can redpoint 5.14 doesn't mean u have the right to turn alpine peaks into sport crags. now of course sometimes bolts are necessary, but in these settings they should be hand drilled on lead while hanging on hooks or else whats to stop some gym rat who thinks hes hot shit because he just finished his project from rap bolting a new route up el cap?

Rant over. read the blog post i linked, it explains the situation much better than i do


scottek67


Jan 24, 2011, 11:23 PM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


jbro_135


Jan 25, 2011, 12:24 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
in 2009/2010

interesting


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2011, 1:00 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/...ama-and-redbull.html

David Lama in 2009/2010 attempted to free climb compressor route with a red bull sponsored expedition. they had to turn back after weather turned bad. while on the route they placed numerous bolts very close to established natural belays and left 700m of fixed lines as well as a lot of garbage. Lama now plans to return with another red bull expedition and rap bolt the headwall(the full story is in the link above).

WTF?! is this where climbing is headed? the gym climbing community thinks its ok to to use sport climbing ethics in an alpine setting? just because u can redpoint 5.14 doesn't mean u have the right to turn alpine peaks into sport crags. now of course sometimes bolts are necessary, but in these settings they should be hand drilled on lead while hanging on hooks or else whats to stop some gym rat who thinks hes hot shit because he just finished his project from rap bolting a new route up el cap?

Rant over. read the blog post i linked, it explains the situation much better than i do

Strange that this occurred without it ever making the rounds on the Interweb forums. Wink

Edit: I take it back. I just realized this is actually a new development. Teach me to post before reading! Ha!


(This post was edited by j_ung on Jan 25, 2011, 2:49 AM)


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Jan 25, 2011, 1:58 AM
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Re: [j_ung] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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I think I may see where the OP has acquired his/her fervor to bring this subject back into focus again.

The above posts make valid points. Especially the ones that show that Lama did this in the 09/10 season. There was a thread on SuperTopo a few days ago that brought this subject back to the front page in the ever ongoing ethics battle surrounding Cerro Torre. In the first post of that thread was a link to Jason Kruk's blog. In it he has some interesting resources, articles, and reads behind what is quite possibly the most controversial route in climbing history and the fact that Lama has shown up this year to attempt it again.
    It has come out today that Lama and crew plan to climb to the top of Cerro Torre following Maestri's bolt line, then rappel from the top and rappel-bolt the best line for free climbing. Lama claims that this is the only way in which he will be able to complete the project within the next 5 years. He also says he can take the shit storm that is sure to ensue.

Seriously?

Climbing is a restless urge needing regular satisfaction. We assume rules and conventions, venerating our own traditions while at the same tine touting our own interpretation of traditions and flouting accepted customs and continually pressing for evolution, achievement, and change within our sport. One dedicated climber will instinctively recognize another; and will accept the world on climber's terms. This is not to say that climbers share an affinity nor do we share each others aspirations, though it seems that the concurrence of peers is important.

Since the beginning, climbing has been a story of evolution balanced by tradition expanding not-always unidirectional. The different disciplines of the sport each have their own codes of aid and practices and there has been a general acceptance between them. Influences by trends in society at large have a dramatic affect on the nature and outcome of climbs and how traditions are upheld. Out of the fear that the ethics, the tolerances, and the traditions of this climb's inherent history we now see a younger generation's ambition encroach upon that which historically has been a route of questionable ethics. It is easy to see how forces such as sponsorships has put out of frame the significance of a route such as the Compressor Route.

How may Lama's team's judgment, concentration, or performance be affected knowing the climbing world will be watching their ever move? It has been speculated that sponsorship may influence decision-making and community-oriented ethics and traditions; that the pressure to continue out of reasons of obligation when a rational community demands retreat and adherence to ethics and traditions. As always, climbers can choose what to use and what to loose.

To Lama and his Red Bull sponsors: Please don't rap-bolt a project on this controversial tower. Please don't rap-bolt a project on this controversial route. There are several other routes on the Cerro Torre massif that beg repeating; repeating in better style than adding scores of hardware to an already hardware heavy route.

I would like to visit this series of mountain peaks in my lifetime and be able to experience the history of Maestri's route and not see it become like walls elsewhere - covered in many offshoots, variations, and unnecessary hardware. There are other mountains just as proud that would welcome a new independent route on them; ones where a team could create the style and ethic. Leave the Compressor Route as-is. There's already enough controversy in Patagonia.


(This post was edited by epoch on Jan 25, 2011, 2:51 AM)


rainman0915


Jan 25, 2011, 2:17 AM
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Re: [scottek67] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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My apologies for bringing up an old subject, but the focus was on the fact that he is going back to do it again (not sure why i thought that that part was new news, but i did)


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2011, 3:03 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
My apologies for bringing up an old subject, but the focus was on the fact that he is going back to do it again (not sure why i thought that that part was new news, but i did)

No, no, it is somewhat new. The mistake was mine.


jbro_135


Jan 25, 2011, 3:57 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
My apologies for bringing up an old subject, but the focus was on the fact that he is going back to do it again (not sure why i thought that that part was new news, but i did)

yeah my bad, this is certainly a new development


airscape


Jan 25, 2011, 10:03 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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Maybe they didn't turn back because of weather, maybe they just ran out of bolts.


sungam


Jan 25, 2011, 2:13 PM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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Yeah, this is looking like round 2. What a nightmare.

I don't usually get my knickers in a twist about this kind of thing but...

Cerro Torre? Oh hell fuck no. That thing is the like the most amazing mountain in the world. This would drag it so low.


ClimbSoHigh


Jan 25, 2011, 3:11 PM
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Re: [sungam] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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This seems like someone is practically retrofitting a existing popular alpine line, in remote Patagonia, paid for by red bull. I don't like the cold, and thus will never alpine climb, but it just seems like this team is stepping on a lot of toes, and not really thinking of others.

Next will come the fears of Red Bull funding grid bolting of Patagonia!


spikeddem


Jan 25, 2011, 3:13 PM
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Re: [sungam] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
Yeah, this is looking like round 2. What a nightmare.

I don't usually get my knickers in a twist about this kind of thing but...

Cerro Torre? Oh hell fuck no. That thing is the like the most amazing mountain in the world. This would drag it so low.
Yeah, a bolt would basically make it like the mountain isn't even there. Crazy Nobody would be able to climb it ever again. Ever. They'd look, see a couple bolts, and think "Nevermind!" Even if they did make it through the mental barrier, they'd never be able to actually climb it, what with the bolts in their way and all.


airscape


Jan 25, 2011, 3:19 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
sungam wrote:
Yeah, this is looking like round 2. What a nightmare.

I don't usually get my knickers in a twist about this kind of thing but...

Cerro Torre? Oh hell fuck no. That thing is the like the most amazing mountain in the world. This would drag it so low.
Yeah, a bolt would basically make it like the mountain isn't even there. Crazy Nobody would be able to climb it ever again. Ever. They'd look, see a couple bolts, and think "Nevermind!" Even if they did make it through the mental barrier, they'd never be able to actually climb it, what with the bolts in their way and all.

Next thing you know someone will drag a compressor up it.


moose_droppings


Jan 25, 2011, 3:20 PM
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Re: [epoch] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
To Lama and his Red Bull sponsors:

This is were my response and actions have gone before, and now again.

I've contacted other well known people sponsored by Red Bull.
Aim for their pocket book.


spikeddem


Jan 25, 2011, 3:23 PM
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Re: [airscape] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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airscape wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
sungam wrote:
Yeah, this is looking like round 2. What a nightmare.

I don't usually get my knickers in a twist about this kind of thing but...

Cerro Torre? Oh hell fuck no. That thing is the like the most amazing mountain in the world. This would drag it so low.
Yeah, a bolt would basically make it like the mountain isn't even there. Crazy Nobody would be able to climb it ever again. Ever. They'd look, see a couple bolts, and think "Nevermind!" Even if they did make it through the mental barrier, they'd never be able to actually climb it, what with the bolts in their way and all.

Next thing you know someone will drag a compressor up it.
and 25 people on rc.com would start shitting bricks


rainman0915


Jan 25, 2011, 7:41 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
epoch wrote:
To Lama and his Red Bull sponsors:

This is were my response and actions have gone before, and now again.

I've contacted other well known people sponsored by Red Bull.
Aim for their pocket book.

I have also contacted mammut, another one of lamas sponsors


altelis


Jan 25, 2011, 9:19 PM
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Re: [rainman0915] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
epoch wrote:
To Lama and his Red Bull sponsors:
I have also contacted mammut, another one of lamas sponsors

This is were my response and actions have gone before, and now again.

I've contacted other well known people sponsored by Red Bull.
Aim for their pocket book.

It's been my opinion all along that Mammut was the sensible place to turn.

Clearly RB doesn't give a shit. That's fine, its too be expected. They don't have people making the bigger decisions based on an understanding of climbing, or are really targeting climbers at all.

They have much larger target audiences, target audiences for whom ethics (either corporate, social, or climbing) is far from being a priority.

Targeting the CLIMBING sponsors of Lama seems to make much more sense. Larger probability that somebody there will care enough about the issues, especially if enough of their (much smaller and more specific) consumer base contacts them.
http://www.mammut.ch/apps/contact.html


tower_climber


Jan 25, 2011, 10:14 PM
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Re: [altelis] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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My email to Red Bull regarding the initial attempt:

In reply to:
To Whom it may Concern,

I am sure you have heard of the controversy surrounding David Lama's placing of an unknown number of bolts on the Compressor Route of Cerro Torre. I would like to add my voice to the fray, and speak out against these actions.

Mr. Lama's actions were unethical in the extreme. Local ethics in the area, a huge part of the climbing culture, decry placing of fixed gear on what many consider an historic stretch of rock. In addition, the leaving of 700m of fixed line and various haul bags reflects poorly on Mr. Lama and your company.

Perhaps worse than the leaving of the gear is the line that Mr. Lama has taken on reporting it. Eyewitness accounts confirm that Mr. Lama has been dishonest when reporting not only the number of bolts he placed, but also the number and location of haul bags. For an athlete who is supposed to be the connection between our sport and your company, Mr. Lama is failing you. His actions, both on and off the face of Cerro Torre, have caused controversy and in some cases downright outrage in the climbing community.

Please consider making an effort to repair David Lama's damage to the famous face of Cerro Torre, and discuss with him the line between appropriate and unacceptable before he approaches the mountain again.

Kindest Regards



Their reply:

In reply to:
Hi Evan,

Due to bad weather, the production had to be stopped and is currently on hold whilst waiting for the next Patagonian summer.
Red Bull takes the protection of nature and security of human lives very seriously, and has a long history in producing high quality productions in extreme circumstances and exposed areas. The entire shoulder and wall has been cleaned of not only our, but also older material which was found. Only one haul bag and 30 bolts remain, set only aside the main climbing route necessary for the production crew due to falling ice on the original track. The whole endeavor and every step was planned and executed in close accordance with the local administration of Parque Nacional Los Glaciares. After completion of the project these parts will also be entirely removed.

If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to give us a shout at 1(877)673-9444.

Thanks and regards,


Emily
Red Bull
www.redbullusa.com

They don't know what is going on at the mountain, and I strongly suspect that they don't care.


donald949


Jan 25, 2011, 10:28 PM
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Hardly seems the proper place for rap bolting.
Which does have a place. But this ain't it.


highcamp


Jan 25, 2011, 10:55 PM
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Re: [donald949] David Lama, Cerro Torre, and Horrible Ethics. [In reply to]
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Started new thread for the online petition to Lama's sponsors asking them to stop supporting his bolting actions on Cerro Torre.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...d;page=unread#unread


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