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highcamp
Jan 25, 2011, 10:51 PM
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Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
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Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.
Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd
275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.
If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.
Thanks,
Erik
(This post was edited by highcamp on Jan 25, 2011, 10:52 PM)
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spikeddem
Jan 25, 2011, 11:07 PM
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Jesus Christ.
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guangzhou
Jan 26, 2011, 12:25 AM
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I personally don't care if he chooses to bolt a new routes. He can climb the generator route, swing left or right at the top and rap bolt if he want.
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j_ung
Jan 26, 2011, 12:50 AM
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highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik
I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.
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caughtinside
Jan 26, 2011, 1:12 AM
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This whole fiasco gets down to my basic beef with pro climbing. Would anyone not underwritten by a sponsor do something like fly to patagonia with a film crew to rap bolt a sport route on the summit of an alpine peak?
I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.
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notapplicable
Jan 26, 2011, 1:20 AM
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j_ung wrote: highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.
He was the one that said he could take the heat...
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guangzhou
Jan 26, 2011, 2:07 AM
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j_ung wrote: highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.
I think you are uneasy about telling other people how they should climb, because you don't want other people imposing their rules on you. (Me too)
If he's bolting a face climb, I rather see him rap bolt a face then put a bolt latter then try to free the route. Bolts placed on rappel are better positioned, doesn't mean the bolts will be close, I am guessing, they will be where they are needed to make the route safe. (Assuming you can can make a Patagonia safe)
In this case, he's climbing an existing route, using that to access the top and rap botling a separate and new route. Nothing wrong with that in my book.
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thenose
Jan 26, 2011, 5:45 AM
Post #8 of 98
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highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik
I have a better idea, create a petition to have the sand professionally removed from your vagina. Stop acting like such a bitch. Why the hell do you care if he bolts a sport route, its not like your ever going to climb it.
(This post was edited by thenose on Jan 26, 2011, 5:45 AM)
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DuckBeard
Jan 26, 2011, 6:21 AM
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Has good intentions. Too bad a cookie cutter email sent 1000 times with only differing signatures won't accomplish anything but spam their inboxes.
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rainman0915
Jan 26, 2011, 7:59 AM
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DuckBeard wrote: Has good intentions.
"You know that people will be very upset if you place your bolts on rappel, right?" Lama's response was "I can take it." what was that about good intentions? in my opinion he is a pussy who doesn't have the balls for alpine climbing. this attitude along with his affiliation with redbull prove to me that he is a wanna be moto X badass and has no place in traditional or alpine climbing.
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airscape
Jan 26, 2011, 8:01 AM
Post #11 of 98
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Could you please direct me to the link of the petition FOR bolting Cerro Torre.
I would really like it to become a sport climbing destination.
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spikeddem
Jan 26, 2011, 3:15 PM
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you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper.
think about it before you sign the petition.
(This post was edited by spikeddem on Jan 26, 2011, 3:15 PM)
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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I don't sign petitions for people or organizations who I don't know. Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways. I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it. Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.
Josh
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edge
Jan 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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thenose wrote: highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik I have a better idea, create a petition to have the sand professionally removed from your vagina. Stop acting like such a bitch. Why the hell do you care if he bolts a sport route, its not like your ever going to climb it.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=2085257;#2085257
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kaizen
Jan 26, 2011, 3:35 PM
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spikeddem wrote: you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper. think about it before you sign the petition.
You sure have invested a lot of posts for someone who supposedly thinks it's a non-issue.
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spikeddem
Jan 26, 2011, 3:41 PM
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kaizen wrote: spikeddem wrote: you can lead the sheep to a bolt, but you cant make the shepherd take the whipper. think about it before you sign the petition. You sure have invested a lot of posts for someone who supposedly thinks it's a non-issue.
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gmggg
Jan 26, 2011, 3:53 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I say just say no to pro climbing. Keep climbing poor, keep it weird, keep it hard and make sure it stays a participant sport rather than a spectator sport with name brand athletes.
+1
Well said.
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highcamp
Jan 26, 2011, 3:53 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/...ma-and-red-bullshit/
http://www.supertopo.com/...opped-on-Cerro-Torre
http://www.alpinist.com/...ama-compressor-bolts
http://www.alpinist.com/...ma-speaks-compressor
http://www.alpinist.com/...wire-flash-bolts-cut
blueeyedclimber wrote: ...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways.
Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links):
the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.
The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated.
blueeyedclimber wrote: ... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important.
Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.
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fresh
Jan 26, 2011, 3:54 PM
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things I don't have a problem with:
1. conscientiously rap-bolting lines that have no natural protection so they can be freed safely.
2. I guess that's about it.
things I have a problem with:
1. red bull not cleaning up their litter from the prior attempt
2. red bull bolting next to spots for natural gear placements
3. bolting anything for a film crew
4. red bull lying about and failing to take accountability for their impact
so while I agree with the sentiment, I can't really get behind the outrage over the rap-bolting.
I've been an evangelist about the BS Red Bull caused a year ago, and the fact that they lied about it and left others to clean it up. so it pains me to take sides with them on anything, but if lama wants to rap-bolt a new line on an otherwise unclimbable portion of the wall, I can't say there's anything wrong with that.
within the context of their prior actions, and without them having apologized for those actions, it does strike me as especially abominable. but that doesn't make it wrong.
I also can't really get behind the petition because it is basically asking someone to tell someone else how to climb. if it was only about the impact they caused, and their shamless hubris, I'd support it for sure. but it's not.
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spikeddem
Jan 26, 2011, 3:56 PM
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highcamp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: ....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it. blueeyedclimber wrote: ...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways. Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links): the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.
The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated. blueeyedclimber wrote: ... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important. Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read.
Maybe we need another thread about the situation?
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 26, 2011, 4:25 PM
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I am not really that interested in it. Like Fresh said, if this were more about a Global problem, such as destruction of the planet, rather than a climbing ethics squabble, then I too would show more support for it.
As far as the style or ethics or whatever of Patagonia goes, I just don't care. I have never been and as far as I know, I am not ever going there. People that are invested in the Patagonian climbing community should care for sure, but I am not one of those people. These discussions are for the communities themselves. It's hard for me to sympathize with these arguments in the grand scheme of all the problems that the world faces.
But, with that said, good luck with it.
Josh
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airscape
Jan 26, 2011, 5:14 PM
Post #22 of 98
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highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik
I've read some stuff on the internet about the disrespect of etchics that redbull has shown for some other activities as well.
Here is another prime example:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/health-canada-red-bull-guru-petition
Redbull has really dissapointed me and I will never mix their product with vodka again.
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dynosore
Jan 26, 2011, 5:36 PM
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spikeddem wrote: highcamp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: ....I really don't know much about Patagonia, David Lama or the intentions of people against this or for it. blueeyedclimber wrote: ...Not sure in this case, petitions would do anything anyways. Update from Rolando Garibotti via supertopo (if you don't know who he is, read any of the above links): the petition is great. signed it. thanks. I agree with Coz that it is a wider discussion. for the time being Cerro Torre is ensuring that David wont get anywhere close to it. yesterday the weather was perfect but the upper half of the peak was as white as can be, with a nice thick veil of frost all over it.
The director and the head rigger came by my house a few days ago and compromised themselves to move forward in a completely different way, as described in Colin's blog. One of them I have know for some years and I will take his word for it. Heli Putz was not invited back. The rap bolting plan is David's thing and has nothing to do with them as far as I can understand. I was pretty psyched about this change of attitude by the film crew, it is a good positive step, no doubt the result in part of each and every entry in this forum. Thanks a bunch for all that support which is very much needed and appreciated. blueeyedclimber wrote: ... I really don't know much about... Nor do I very much care to. To me, it is really not that important. Sorry to hear that. How can I convince you that it is important? Maybe give Kelly Cordes' blog entry from last year a read (regarding Lama's last attempt at his "proj", see above). It's a good read. This could not get anymore annoying. Maybe we need another thread about the situation?
You say you aren't interested in the issue, fine. Some of us have real aspirations to climb there some day and do care. Why do you keep coming back to these threads?
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j_ung
Jan 26, 2011, 5:49 PM
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j_ung wrote: highcamp wrote: Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over. ----------------------------------- Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all. Link: http://bit.ly/foXVJd 275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going. If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition. Thanks, Erik I agree with the sentiment. I'd rather see the kid do things differently than it seems he has planned. However, I seem to be having some sort of gut reaction against this. At first consideration, I'm not comfortable grouping together to exert influence over how somebody else climbs. I have to think it about more.
After thinking about it some more, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get involved. I have this visceral reaction to anybody telling somebody else how they should climb, unless it has obvious safety ramifications. That goes doubly for whole groups of people exerting influence in an organized manner. Eww. Besides, all we're talking about now is rap bolting vs. bolting on lead, and other than for the bolter, there's just not that much difference between the two.
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zealotnoob
Jan 26, 2011, 7:17 PM
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This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.
Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.
Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.
(This post was edited by zealotnoob on Jan 26, 2011, 7:46 PM)
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