This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.

This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.


The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town, if Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.

Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.

No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.

There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?

I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?

That happened last year . . .

1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked

What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock?