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spikeddem


Jan 26, 2011, 7:27 PM
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Re: [zealotnoob] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.


rainman0915


Jan 26, 2011, 11:13 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

A drill will be bringing a change to that soon enough.

Exactly, i dont see the difference here between lama going "well theres no way i can climb that and place bolts on lead" and someone else going "this boulder problem is way too hard, maybe if i just chip a couple extra holds into it i can send its"

Just because lama cant send it in good style doesnt mean no one can


rainman0915


Jan 26, 2011, 11:24 PM
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Lets face it, at this point in time an average climber can reach the top of any summit by any route if bad style and ethics are used. alpinism and mountaineering started as a basically no holds barred get to the summit any means necessary. with all this fancy technology whats to stop someone from getting a solar charger, a power drill and making bolt ladders all the way up any face they want "new route trango towers 5.4 A0 fa 2011" nothing. so if the sport is to endure some manner of style and ethics must be used. its not enough to stand on the summit, its how you got there. and in my book rap bolting has no place in alpine climbing, each first ascent on alpine peaks should be treated as if no one has ever stoop on the peak before and that this is the only way up.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.


moose_droppings


Jan 27, 2011, 1:37 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

Kewl. Maybe someone should take a jackhammer up there and make a nice long crack up that face.


rainman0915


Jan 27, 2011, 1:57 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:18 AM
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Re: [highcamp] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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highcamp wrote:
Just noticed that this link wasn't available over here, so thought I'd copy+paste it over.
-----------------------------------

Created an online petition to ask David Lama's sponsors to stop their support of his bolting actions in Patagonia. Signing the petition will automatically send emails to the CEO of Mammut Sports Group AG (that was a doozy to find), La Sportiva S.p.A. (Italy), Red Bull GmbH, Red Bull Media House GmbH, and Lama's promotion agent. Figured time is of the essence on this one, so better to get something out ASAP than nothing out at all.

Link:
http://bit.ly/foXVJd

275 signatures so far, including several high profile climbers. Let's keep the momentum going.

If you're on facebook or twitter, pass the link on. And bump this thread once you've signed the petition.

Thanks,
Erik

Nice to know someone around here understands the importance that visiting climbers (especially sponsored ones looking to make money off their "sends") respect the local ethic. Thanks. Too bad a lot idiots who posted in this thread don't have a clue.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:27 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town. If Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 4:42 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:41 AM
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Re: [yanqui] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:44 AM
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Re: [yanqui] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
First, I don't think rap-bolting is bad style. In most cases, the botls end up in better locations and in this case, I think the route would even have fewer botls than if the line was bolted on lead. If we're talking about a unprotectable face climb, I see no reason to not climb the route next to the face, move left or right, then rap bolt a line.

zealotnoob wrote:
This isn't just any old lead vs rap bolting debate. This is a question of paying respect to the local and alpine ethic and the history of the stone.

Would anyone in this thread condone rap bolting Canon Cliffs or at the Gunks? How about on Grit or at that sandstone crag in the Czech Republic where you can'n use chalk or cams? I certainly hope not. And, in this case, we're not talking about some little local rock face, we're talking about arguably the most impenetrable and beautiful granite spire on earth.

Sometimes it takes a little activism to protect what you and your community holds dear.

The same ethics and traditions that allowed climbers to drag a generator up the cliff to place bolts. From what I understand, the generator still hangs there out of "respect to the first ascent" party.

I don't know if I'll ever climbing in Patagonia, I was invited a couple years back and decided not to go and put up some new routes in Asia instead. If I do go, chances are I'll be looking for nice long crack routes and not a fully bolted face climb. Witht hat said, if the line looks good, I would consider climbing a bolted face climb there.

Most people who climb care so much about how the bolts went in, on lead or ground up, but most of those same people couldn't tell me how the bolts went after they climb the route unless the guidebook tells them or someone else did.

The only person who is effected by how bolts are placed is the First ascent party on the first ascent. As someone who puts up routes in both style, I am 100% sure that the climbers who repeat my lines can't tell which one I bolted from the ground up versus on rappel. I can say that rap bolting helps me select the best possible line because I am not limited to handholds big enough to drill from, or hook placements when drilling. (I use both a hand-drill and a bosh.)

My two cents, if he's botling anew route that doesn't have gear, I don't care how he does it. If he's bolting a route that can be protected by gear, I see the issue.

I also doubt that thousand of climbers will go running to the Patagonia to climb this route.

I remember when Gulich put up Rider's of the Storm, the established community was again him saying it was suicidal, crazy, and plain not possible to put up hard routes like that in Patagonia, today, seems pretty normal.

Obviously you don't have a clue what you're talking about. The point is that rap bolting is a totally unacceptable practice on the peaks above El Chalten. On the other hand, there are a lot of one pitch rap bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags just out of town, if Lama is really interested in rap bolting a sport route, I'm sure no one would mind if he put up a "rad" new sport route there.

Ethics are not laws. Unacceptable, we'll see. Personally, I find it discussing that people still place pitons when they know it destroys the rock, but they condemn other for placing bolts.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 2:50 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Ethics in Patagonia are still being defined and will continue to evolve. When Gullich decided to go to Patagonia and establish a route using the light and fast techniques like those of Yosemite, he was laughed at by the established community of climbers who frequented Patagonia.

From what I remember of the time, yes, I was climbing then too, Messner more or less laughed at Gullich for moving the climbing in Patagonia ina new direction.

Today, the techniques of Yosemite are the norm in Patagonia, light and fast.

Bolts have been a reality on new routes there for long time. I think a rap bolted line of bolts placed to free climb a route is much more ethical than a bolt ladder to conquer the mountain.

Again, this is a new route with no cracks, no worries.

Some idiots are just scared of progress and resort to "That's the way we've always done it" attitude.

Why are you comparing Gullich's route to Lama's antics? This doesn't make any sense. Lama's team fixed ropes where this practice is considered unacceptable, placed new bolts on a classic route right next to cracks and then lied about what they did. And now he plans to rap bolt the summit wall of Cerro Torre. How does this compare to "Riders on the Storm"?. Do you know what you're talking about?

There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 2:58 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 2:59 AM
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No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 3:12 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 3:31 AM)


cmagee1


Jan 27, 2011, 3:16 AM
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Re: [rainman0915] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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rainman0915 wrote:
Rap bolting is certainly not bad style in some instances (sport crags and the likes)

Cerro Torre happens to be a little different than you average sport crag.


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 3:36 AM
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yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.


yanqui


Jan 27, 2011, 4:18 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
yanqui wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
No lack of clear ethics, maybe you should be about Lama's plans. Seems like he doesn't see this as a clear choice.

I was not talking about Riders of the Storm, I was talking about a change. Climbers hate and resist change. The old guard are scare of losing ground to the new school.

Clean climbing, sticky rubber, cams, hang doging, bolting, sport climbing, climbing gyms have had resistance.

Again, the most interesting thing to me is that people who use pitons are normally the loudest at denouncing bolts.

Rap bolting wasn't acceptable in any area until someone took the first step and started the process. More and more people are accepting the practice and more and more will.

I personally don't care how the first ascent party places it's bolts. I prefer to care about how good the bolts are once placed. How good the route is once it's completed.

I learned to climb on cracks and resisted sport climbing when it came to America, not I still climb cracks and I clip bolts.

I have never been on a established routes and said, wow, this route would have been much better of the bolts were placed on lead. Or, this route would be much better of it had been rap-bolted.

This is not an argument about whether bolting is good or bad. Arguments about whether bolts are good or bad don't interest me. There are lots of bolted sport routes on the volcanic crags right next to El Chalten. If you wanna put up another one there, GREAT. This is about (what should be) the accepted ethic for climbing and establishing new routes on the peaks.

If you think Lama is trying to put up this route as some kind of service to other climbers who will repeat it, then you REALLY don't have a clue.

Do you think sponsored climbers get rich? If so, who is it that has no clue.

Again, it's anew route and he can put up anyway he pleases. Personally, I think a free route on the peak, even if bolted on rappel is better than another bolt ladder.

There has been some remarkable climbing done on Cerro Torre in the past. Perhaps you are unaware of that. So far, Lama's antics don't even come close to measuring up. The only person who put up a bolt ladder was Maestri, and for some unknown reason, Lama seems compelled to add to that desecration. You seem to think that's "rad". I think it sucks. I don't see we have anything else to discuss.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Jan 27, 2011, 1:31 PM)


tallnik


Jan 27, 2011, 4:42 AM
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Wow, this thread may make me never return to this site... For years I've tolerated the BS and rhetoric, but it's getting to a point where I no longer have the patience for it.

It seems that a lot of you spent time creating posts based on nothing but vitirol for people who would dare criticize sport climbing in any form. Do your research, this story is not just about rap-bolting. Spend less time writing long winded BS based on opinion - when you could have spent some of the time reading into this story. His team last year left a catastrophe of ropes and lied to the public the placement of anchor bolts. I would suggest you read Rololando Garibotti's post, or Colin Haley's - as they're the ones who took responsibility and went and cleaned up the bolts that had been placed on another route (adjacent to Lama's climb) RIGHT next to bomber gear placements. That alone would have been unacceptable in my eyes.

Do you research... then post...

Perhaps it's time for me to say "goodbye RC.com, hello Supertopo (?), Alpinist (?) "


(This post was edited by tallnik on Jan 27, 2011, 4:43 AM)


guangzhou


Jan 27, 2011, 5:14 AM
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Re: [tallnik] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I edited this. I have nothing to share.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 27, 2011, 6:44 AM)


rainman0915


Jan 27, 2011, 5:28 AM
Post #44 of 98 (5161 views)
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Re: [tallnik] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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that has already been discussed in previous threads and happened last year. the new development is that he plans to return to the peak with a redbull film crew and rap bolt the headwall.


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 2:40 PM
Post #45 of 98 (5124 views)
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Re: [yanqui] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 2:57 PM
Post #46 of 98 (5115 views)
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Re: [fresh] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .


fresh


Jan 27, 2011, 3:59 PM
Post #47 of 98 (5097 views)
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Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 4:11 PM
Post #48 of 98 (5088 views)
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Registered: Aug 27, 2007
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Re: [fresh] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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fresh wrote:
spikeddem wrote:
fresh wrote:
yanqui wrote:
There is no lack of clarity about "ethics" in the Fitz Roy Area: ABSOLUTELY NO RAP BOLTING. Isn't that easy to understand and clear?
I think it sucks that the controversy has centered around the issue of rap-bolting. it's split everyone apart, because it's the only thing we disagree on.

why can't we focus on the things that are unambiguously anathema about the whole situation.
in particular, that:

1. red bull bolted for their film crew next to natural gear placements
2. failed to clean up their litter
3. lied about the volume of their litter, and offered little more than glib responses to anyone who objected.

can we all get on the same side of a few issues, and leave the rest alone?
That happened last year . . .
1. they never took accountability, let alone apologized
2. they will probably do the same things again

not fucking up in the first place > fucking up and apologizing >>>>>>> fucking up, and continuing to fuck up as if the up was never fucked
And this petition is going to make red bull apologize......?


dynosore


Jan 27, 2011, 4:39 PM
Post #49 of 98 (5079 views)
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Posts: 1768

Re: [spikeddem] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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I'm not aware of the local ethic down there. What I do know is this:

The pictures show bolts right next to a bomber granite crack, makes me want to puke

It was done on an existing line, to aid in a corporate promotion

The people who did it lied about how many bolts they placed and where they placed them

Now they're going back to bolt another line, even though all the major accomplishments on that mountain for over 25 years have been done in better style

What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock? Sad that the lowest common denominator often wins out when it comes to "ethics"


spikeddem


Jan 27, 2011, 4:54 PM
Post #50 of 98 (5068 views)
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Re: [dynosore] SIGN PETITION to Lama's sponsors; no support for bolting Cerro Torre [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
What if we all had such blatant disregard for the rock?

I think the tendency for climbers to personify rock is hilarious. Well, this sentence doesn't really do that so much, at least not directly, but still.

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