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notapplicable
Jan 1, 2011, 6:30 AM
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BrianO wrote: Now you have time while you are recovering to figure out what could be done to avoid or lesson injury in the future. I have been reading The rock warriors way and the author in that book says to practice falling on a regulor basis. I know I will follow that advice after hearing your story. May you have a speedy recovery.
I'm not sure where you are going with this. Why do you think taking pratice falls will help avoid this kind of accident/injury?
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Adk
Jan 1, 2011, 3:40 PM
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Thanks for sharing your story. I'm sure there are some that will benefit from your story.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.
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socalclimber
Jan 1, 2011, 5:38 PM
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notapplicable wrote: BrianO wrote: Now you have time while you are recovering to figure out what could be done to avoid or lesson injury in the future. I have been reading The rock warriors way and the author in that book says to practice falling on a regulor basis. I know I will follow that advice after hearing your story. May you have a speedy recovery. I'm not sure where you are going with this. Why do you think taking pratice falls will help avoid this kind of accident/injury?
Boy that one sure got deleted fast didn't it?!
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notapplicable
Jan 1, 2011, 8:06 PM
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socalclimber wrote: notapplicable wrote: BrianO wrote: Now you have time while you are recovering to figure out what could be done to avoid or lesson injury in the future. I have been reading The rock warriors way and the author in that book says to practice falling on a regulor basis. I know I will follow that advice after hearing your story. May you have a speedy recovery. I'm not sure where you are going with this. Why do you think taking pratice falls will help avoid this kind of accident/injury? Boy that one sure got deleted fast didn't it?!
Well, I'm not entirely sure he was wrong but I'm also not sure he was right. Thats why I asked where he was headed with that thought. I also don't like the term "practice" falls because there's no such thing IMO. An announced fall can be just as dangerous as an unannounced one.
Typically a new climber with experienced partners will quickly witness, take or catch a number of falls under different circumstances and should develop the ability to judge fall distance pretty quickly. A new climber who only partners with other novices during that first 6 months could be in for a rude and possibly dangerous awakening when it comes to how far a climber can fall given the right (or wrong, if you like) set of circumstances. Even when only a few feet above the last bolt/gear placement.
As a nOOb, I only climbed with other nOObs and we pretty much read some books and made the rest up as we went along. I never really took any announced falls, I just took a bunch of baby falls and progressively got more comfortable/confident in taking longer falls. The same thing goes for catching falls and I was honestly surprised by how far I was lifted off the ground and how much the rope stretched the first time my brother (who outweighs me by 55 lbs.) took a long fall. I've since learned how to evaluate all the variables that contribute to fall distance and how to safely belay a heavier climber but I'm also probably lucky that I didn't get that crash course, so to speak, on catching a heavier climber while he was trying to clip the 3rd bolt.
If we had deliberately taken announced falls with an eye towards evaluating all the factors that contribute to fall distance, perhaps we would have been safer climbers, or at least better belayers. Perhaps it's just luck that a "surprisingly" long fall didn't plant one of us on a ledge or in the ground during those first 6 months.
Now that I'm the relatively experienced one, I make they new guys take an announced fall or three and I do the same for them. And doing so paid dividends just the other week, or at least I'm inclined to think it did seeing as how it was just my hair sweeping the ground and not my head bouncing off of it...
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Jan 1, 2011, 8:07 PM)
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curt
Jan 2, 2011, 1:29 AM
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wonderwoman wrote: I've hidden some personal attacks in this forum. Please keep it civil in here. To the OP, I'm glad to see that you have learned from your mistake and it does take courage to put it all out there and share your lessons in this forum. Here's to a speedy recovery.
I'll second that sentiment. The poor guy already knew he screwed up and admitted as much up front. Others, who apparently need to feel superior by restating the obvious, have added absolutely no meaningful content to this thread.
Curt
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JasonsDrivingForce
Feb 3, 2011, 8:28 PM
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I appreciate your post and I wish you a speedy recovery. I think everyone has explained what went wrong. However, I wonder if there was anything that could have been done differently in advance that would have lessened the impact if mistakes like these were made.
If your wife was anchored in would that have been enough for her to catch you? Should that always be the policy when a lighter belayer is belaying a heavier belayer?
I know that the answer is to not make the mistakes. However, we are human, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them. I was wondering what can be done to make sure we get a second chance at not making those mistakes.
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slartibartfast
Feb 3, 2011, 10:00 PM
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david7896 wrote: The bolt was right at the top of the roof, to the clip in I had to get above the 3rd bolt and reach down the clip. And everyone knows, any time you have to go above your bolt it starts to get more and more dangerous.
While I mostly agree with the above statement, I just wanted to point out one thing before any nOObs take it as gospel.
It's true that climbing above a bolt before clipping might draw too much slack into the system; this concept, however, should not be taken to the extreme of "I am safer if I clip the bolt as soon as possible." Nervous beginners who get gripped as soon as they pass their last clip will often stretch themselves to the limit to reach above their head to the next bolt, effectively putting themselves back on top-rope. This practice introduces HUGE amounts of slack into the system as the rope travels past the climber, out to his fingertips, then BACK to his harness! While this would be fine if the climber had a good stance to clip from, a poor stance, coupled with extra slack and the possibility(make that a probability for beginners)of a botched clip, can add up to serious injury.
True, climbing higher above your last protection might seem scary, but the decision to clip should be based on the quality of the stance. I, for one, would prefer to climb a bit higher, even if unprotected, if it means I can decrease the slack in the system and find a safer clipping stance.
I only bring this up to remind people of the danger of thinking in absolutes. This mindset, it seems to me, is what caused this accident: the climber thought that he should always say "clipping" every time to alert his belayer, forgetting that "clipping" implies a request for slack; his wife, hearing his request, thought that she should automatically give slack, forgetting that not all clipping scenarios require more slack.
In point of fact, I'm not sure I can think of anything that is truly an "absolute" in climbing. "Don't let go with your brake hand," maybe; but even that seemed to lead somehow to the "pinch-and-slide" method of taking in slack, which I consider to be wildly dangerous.
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ClimbSoHigh
Feb 4, 2011, 6:17 PM
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Glad your OK, and thanks for posting. Incredible that you were able to walk away from that.
This did bring up an interesting point along the way about belayers ignoring commands of the climber, and if it is ok to override the climbers request. Might be a good topic for an different thread if there isn't one already. Good food for thought to discuss with my belayers. I usually would prefer that my belayers do what I ask, even if it appears to them that I am saying take above my last pro (or clipping when I don't need extra slack). My reason is that I as the climber have the best view and understanding to what is going on around me and I don't want to get into a debate with my belayer when I ask for something. On the other hand, there could be situations involving confusion, like if a neigboring climber yells "take", and if my belayer thinks its me saying it but sees me above pro, I would not object him confirming the request rather than obey and pull me off. (I usually use my partners name in conjuction, but what if our neighbor has the same name... ) Anywho, I'm rambling and this should be for another thread.
Glad to hear your doing great considering the fall, and thanks for posting. Without it I would have not started to reconsider about the above.
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shimanilami
Feb 4, 2011, 8:21 PM
Post #59 of 71
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majid_sabet wrote: ... in climbing, there is no such thing as "small mistake" and every mistake has a potential of putting you six feet under dirt. seriously ...
Lighten up, Francis.
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cracklover
Feb 4, 2011, 9:57 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: I appreciate your post and I wish you a speedy recovery. I think everyone has explained what went wrong. However, I wonder if there was anything that could have been done differently in advance that would have lessened the impact if mistakes like these were made. If your wife was anchored in would that have been enough for her to catch you? Should that always be the policy when a lighter belayer is belaying a heavier belayer? I know that the answer is to not make the mistakes. However, we are human, we make mistakes and hopefully we learn from them. I was wondering what can be done to make sure we get a second chance at not making those mistakes.
Always anchoring a smaller belayer down to the ground isn't a good solution, either.
I once saw a climber pull a refrigerator sized block off a single pitch route. It had been attached forever, the climb was fairly popular, and so far as I know, no-one had ever doubted the integrity of that block before that particular freeze-thaw season liberated it from the wall.
The belayer was right in the line of fire, and took off. He was fine, but had he been anchored down, it would have taken a crane to move the block enough to liberate his remains.
GO
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JasonsDrivingForce
Feb 4, 2011, 10:00 PM
Post #61 of 71
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cracklover wrote: Always anchoring a smaller belayer down to the ground isn't a good solution, either. I once saw a climber pull a refrigerator sized block off a single pitch route. It had been attached forever, the climb was fairly popular, and so far as I know, no-one had ever doubted the integrity of that block before that particular freeze-thaw season liberated it from the wall. The belayer was right in the line of fire, and took off. He was fine, but had he been anchored down, it would have taken a crane to move the block enough to liberate his remains. GO
I didn't think about that. I guess that would be a good reason to not be attached to an anchor.
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nkane
Feb 4, 2011, 10:29 PM
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kennoyce wrote: 2. Not that this happened, but it is important to note that when you are close to the ground you should never give a soft catch because that could mean decking. I always ask my belayer to give me a hard catch (i.e. take in slack, sit down, or whatever to keep me off the ground) until I have clipped the third bolt on many routes.
I disagree with this - I've seen too many busted ankles from belayers slamming their climbers into the wall to say that never giving a soft catch before the third bolt is a good idea.
There's a lot of space between a hard, sit-down catch and lobbing yourself into the air - you can reel in slack quickly and then step into the catch, you can sit down until the rope comes taught and then rise into it. Evaluate the situation and make the right call. Belaying is a full-body sport.
I'd rather lightly tap the ground than have my ankle shattered from a belayer running backwards and reeling in slack just because of a rule that you should never give a soft catch below the third bolt.
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112
Feb 4, 2011, 11:36 PM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: Always anchoring a smaller belayer down to the ground isn't a good solution, either. I once saw a climber pull a refrigerator sized block off a single pitch route. It had been attached forever, the climb was fairly popular, and so far as I know, no-one had ever doubted the integrity of that block before that particular freeze-thaw season liberated it from the wall. The belayer was right in the line of fire, and took off. He was fine, but had he been anchored down, it would have taken a crane to move the block enough to liberate his remains. GO I didn't think about that. I guess that would be a good reason to not be attached to an anchor.
Or a good reason to anchor somewhere other than directly below the climber.
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jt512
Feb 5, 2011, 12:11 AM
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112 wrote: JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: Always anchoring a smaller belayer down to the ground isn't a good solution, either. I once saw a climber pull a refrigerator sized block off a single pitch route. It had been attached forever, the climb was fairly popular, and so far as I know, no-one had ever doubted the integrity of that block before that particular freeze-thaw season liberated it from the wall. The belayer was right in the line of fire, and took off. He was fine, but had he been anchored down, it would have taken a crane to move the block enough to liberate his remains. GO I didn't think about that. I guess that would be a good reason to not be attached to an anchor. Or a good reason to anchor somewhere other than directly below the climber.
Or a good reason not to anchor and to belay somewhere other than directly below the climber.
Jay
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112
Feb 5, 2011, 1:15 AM
Post #65 of 71
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jt512 wrote: Or a good reason not to anchor and to belay somewhere other than directly below the climber. Jay
Why does the possibility of being crushed determine the need for anchoring?
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jt512
Feb 5, 2011, 4:59 AM
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112 wrote: jt512 wrote: Or a good reason not to anchor and to belay somewhere other than directly below the climber. Jay Why does the possibility of being crushed determine the need for anchoring?
It doesn't, and I didn't imply that it did.
Jay
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notapplicable
Feb 6, 2011, 12:21 AM
Post #67 of 71
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: cracklover wrote: Always anchoring a smaller belayer down to the ground isn't a good solution, either. I once saw a climber pull a refrigerator sized block off a single pitch route. It had been attached forever, the climb was fairly popular, and so far as I know, no-one had ever doubted the integrity of that block before that particular freeze-thaw season liberated it from the wall. The belayer was right in the line of fire, and took off. He was fine, but had he been anchored down, it would have taken a crane to move the block enough to liberate his remains. GO I didn't think about that. I guess that would be a good reason to not be attached to an anchor.
And it's only one of many. A belayer needs to be mobile to spot the climber before the first placement, keep the climber from falling on the rope if they pitch low on the route, to keep the climber in sight, to provide a dynamic catch if needed to prevent injury to the climber, to get snacks from the pack, etc...
I would even go so far as to say that in most cases if a belayer spends the entire climb standing in the same place, they are doing it wrong.
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petsfed
Feb 6, 2011, 5:05 AM
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Since I habitually call "clipping" when I clip, its worth mentioning under what circumstances I don't say clipping:
When I don't have to pull up slack to make the clip or when I'm in a no-hands position and pulling up the rope slowly and herky-jerky wise won't pull me off the route. This of course returns to the question of "why say 'clipping'?" The move is entirely to make sure that you don't get short-roped, and not at all out of some kind of consideration for the belayer. Thus, if short-roping is a non-issue, then nothing needs be said.
Too late for your feet, I know, but the lesson is this: for every hard-and-fast rule you hold to, ask yourself why you hold to it, and where holding to it endangers you, and you'll see how you can modify your practices to become safer, instead of simply more regimented.
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JasonsDrivingForce
Feb 7, 2011, 3:02 AM
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Why is it that climbers say things where they don't need the belayer to take action? Why issue a statement like clipping instead of using a command like "slack" or "take". Why say anything if you don't need the belayer to adjust from what they are currently doing?
Do you all discuss your commands with the belayer before you climb? Do you say "The commands I use are "blank" and they mean "blank" when you are climbing with a new partner?
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jt512
Feb 7, 2011, 4:05 AM
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote: Why is it that climbers say things where they don't need the belayer to take action?
Good question. They shouldn't. Unnecessary communication is just an opportunity for miscommunication.
In reply to: Why issue a statement like clipping instead of using a command like "slack" or "take".
Well, "clipping" implies the opposite of "take," and is more specific than "slack." It implies that you need a certain amount of slack and that you need it immediately.
In reply to: Why say anything if you don't need the belayer to adjust from what they are currently doing?
If the belayer can't see that you're clipping then you do need the belayer to depart what he is currently doing. When you clip, you need slack faster than when you're climbing.
In reply to: Do you all discuss your commands with the belayer before you climb? Do you say "The commands I use are "blank" and they mean "blank" when you are climbing with a new partner?
For sport climbing, not if the climber is experienced, as there are a limited number of situations that have to communicated a limited number of ways that these are communicated, and two experienced sport climbers should generally be on the same page. With an inexperienced sport climber (including some experienced trad climbers), I'll explain that I will never rappel, and will expect them to lower me, and that I will give two commands before I lower: "take" and "lower," and that these are separate commands. I expect that they will already be familiar with the standard on-route communications: slack, take, up rope, falling, watch me, rock, fuck, etc.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 7, 2011, 4:07 AM)
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JasonsDrivingForce
Feb 7, 2011, 2:28 PM
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jt512 wrote: Good question. They shouldn't. Unnecessary communication is just an opportunity for miscommunication. Jay
Thanks for the responses. Those are very helpful.
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