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Cprosser16
Feb 24, 2011, 4:02 AM
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I am fairly new to rock climbing. I have been climbing indoors for a while and I have climbed outdoors with family in Alaska, but I got the gear I need and now I want to go out and climb with my own anchors at the only semi-decent outdoor location near where I am. There are only sport bolts, no top roping bolts on the established climbs. So it necessary for tree anchors.
Question I have is, do I need to do more than one tree anchor per climb? All the trees are bomber, at least 1.5 to 2 ft in diameter, all extremely healthy and well rooted. The problem I can see from the times I have been to the location is that there is only one decent tree at a decent angle for each climb. To set up another tree anchor for redundancy would take about 50 ft of extension from the further away tree, in addition to the distance between the trees the angles would be extremely bad for the force exerted on the webbing, it would be close to a 100% of the force if not more. Would it be safe enough to set up one tree anchor that is well made on an excellent tree and extended over the edge of the cliff? (I know how to make the anchors, I have done it before with my family, but all of those had easy to use trees in easy to use places.)
Another side question, what do you guys think is the limit that a tree should be used for a climb? There are a few more tree closer to where each climber anchor is set up, but they are smaller in diameter, maybe 4-8 inches.
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qwert
Feb 24, 2011, 10:48 AM
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While redundancy is generally a good thing, there are time when it simply is not neccessary, or will not work.
And i would dare to say that 2ft trees are one of those cases.
What do you guess will happen when one of the big trees you anchored to will fail?
A few tonnes of wood will fall down towards the earth or the cliff side. I havent yet calculated it or measured it, but falling trees produce quite a lot of force. I have managed to knock over other trees with a falling tree, or to simply completely unroot them, so i guess there is a lot of force involved.
And even if your backup tree and the conncetion to it withstands the other trees fall, try to imagine what will happen if said tree still connected to the other tree swipes over the cliffside.
Again, i havent calculated it, but i imagine a bloody smear all over the cliff, that once was a climber ...
qwert
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viciado
Feb 24, 2011, 11:00 AM
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Qwert, that was an artful reply rotfl.
OP - A BFT (Big Fat Tree) is generally enough for Top Rope. Give attention to how your rope passes over the edge and provide proper edge protection and or extension as necessary to avoid rope on sharp edges and excess friction against the rock face.
If you have doubts (as indicated in your post,) you will really benefit from asking someone with experience to show you how they would do it. It sounds like there are folks around that could help you out!
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j_ung
Feb 24, 2011, 11:57 AM
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Assuming the 2' tree is as BF as you say, there's no problem. Make sure your anchor material is redundant, pad sharp edges and climb on.
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sherpa79
Feb 24, 2011, 12:14 PM
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Look at it in another way, a large tree weighs a LOT. Even if the tree were to fail, so long as it didn't physically fall over the cliff edge, or break in half and send a bunch of heavy shrapnel your way etc., and provided your rope or anchor material survived, you'd still be alive. The fact is when the tree is on the ground it weighs just as much You couldn't possibly move that much around. If the tree failed away from the cliffs edge you might find yourself getting to the top a little faster than anticipated!  So redundancy isn't really necessary.
Not that I recommend anchoring to falling trees. They are notoriously hard to catch.
As far as the smallest diameter "acceptable" most of the time you just use the best thing available in an appropriate spot.
Usually I say if it's alive and as big as your thigh, you don't have to worry about it. With smaller trees, especially those right on the cliff's edge the health and species may make a difference as might the soil matrix around it. Learn a little about your local flora. Ask other climbers, etc. Have fun.
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sungam
Feb 24, 2011, 12:22 PM
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qwert wrote: While redundancy is generally a good thing, there are time when it simply is not neccessary, or will not work. And i would dare to say that 2ft trees are one of those cases. What do you guess will happen when one of the big trees you anchored to will fail? A few tonnes of wood will fall down towards the earth or the cliff side. I havent yet calculated it or measured it, but falling trees produce quite a lot of force. I have managed to knock over other trees with a falling tree, or to simply completely unroot them, so i guess there is a lot of force involved. And even if your backup tree and the conncetion to it withstands the other trees fall, try to imagine what will happen if said tree still connected to the other tree swipes over the cliffside. Again, i havent calculated it, but i imagine a bloody smear all over the cliff, that once was a climber ... qwert
The translation sucks a little but here is a report of some Norwegian climbers that ripped one of the trees in their anchor. They weren't 2-footers but pretty sizable (at least a foot). Carnage.
http://www.ClimbNorway.blogspot.com/2008/april/23/zeefernfailen
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Lbrombach
Feb 24, 2011, 1:50 PM
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I'd use the BFT, no prob. I would still use two sets of everything just as if I were rigging two smaller trees. As for the 4-8 inch trees... 4 is on the small side to be the only anchor, but it might be one of two anchors if I evaluate it and decide its ok.
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chadnsc
Feb 24, 2011, 3:05 PM
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Assuming each tree is alive, with good root structure, and is solidly attached into the ground . . . .
Trees under 7" diameter - at least three
Trees 10"-18" in diameter - two
Trees over 24" in diameter - one could be fine
Keep in mind you’ll want to sling each tree as low to the base / ground as possible. Also keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion which is based on my experience where I climb with the species of trees that I use as anchors.
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ClimbSoHigh
Feb 24, 2011, 5:25 PM
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You might want to note that large diameter trees doesn't mean it is always a bomber tree. Check to make sure it is not dead or rotting, deased, or poorly rooted. If you have any doubt, give it a good shake to see if it moves at all. I have heard stories of 2 foot + thick trees being pulled out by hand when rotted or poorly rooted. Sometimes I will use a smaller tree to anchor with because the available larger tree looked suspect.
"Climbing Anchors" by John Long has a great writeup about natural anchor points, and a pretty in depth analasys of using trees as protection. If you havn't already, you might want to give it a read, even if you are only top roping.
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wwalt822
Feb 24, 2011, 5:37 PM
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chadnsc wrote: Assuming each tree is alive, with good root structure, and is solidly attached into the ground . . . . Trees under 7" diameter - at least three Trees 10"-18" in diameter - two Trees over 24" in diameter - one could be fine Keep in mind you’ll want to sling each tree as low to the base / ground as possible. Also keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion which is based on my experience where I climb with the species of trees that I use as anchors.
A 7 inch tree that is well rooted is pretty damn strong. I'd be ok with just one if nothing else was close by.
(This post was edited by wwalt822 on Feb 24, 2011, 5:37 PM)
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Adk
Feb 24, 2011, 5:46 PM
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chadnsc wrote: Assuming each tree is alive, with good root structure, and is solidly attached into the ground . . . . Trees under 7" diameter - at least three Trees 10"-18" in diameter - two Trees over 24" in diameter - one could be fine Keep in mind you’ll want to sling each tree as low to the base / ground as possible. Also keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion which is based on my experience where I climb with the species of trees that I use as anchors.
I've ripped trees, thousands of trees at that, out of the ground with heavy equipment and will say this.
Good ground, good tree, one 7" tree will hold any fall!!!!!!
The problem is that you are not an expert at guessing the strength of the rooting abilities of a tree.
Just look at the tree first. and think about the ground the tree is rooted in. Anchor low and go for it!
When trees are < 3" in diameter I will use three depending on where they are located in proximity to one another. I know less will hold yet it makes others feel better to see more.
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jeepnphreak
Feb 24, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Well I have a short story about that.
Our neighbor had a pine that had pine bark beetle and was dying. The tree was a bit smaller that a foot across. So he decided to hitch up his 1 ton new Chevy diesel truck to the tree with a chain and yank the tree out of the ground.
To which proceeded to break the ujoint on the front drive shaft and bend the frame. The tree was un budged from the ground and it was half dead.
Moral of the story is a tree makes a fine climbing anchor.
I have used trees about 6 inches for slack lining anchors and never had one fall over. That puts a crap load of force on a tree.
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kovacs69
Feb 24, 2011, 7:19 PM
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Here is a question for you guys along the same lines.
How many of you would use overhanging branches as an anchor top belay or top rope?
Here is the situation.
We have a free-standing sandstone boulder about 40 feet tall. The start park does not allow bolts of any type. We climb the boulder which has 4 fairly popular routes and then use a couple of the overhanging pine tree branches for a top rope anchor. Then when done we clean up and rap down from them.
The branches are huge and we use up to 3 of them for the setup but they are 4+ feet from the trunk.
How many of you would use this set-up?
JB
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chadnsc
Feb 24, 2011, 8:06 PM
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Adk wrote: chadnsc wrote: Assuming each tree is alive, with good root structure, and is solidly attached into the ground . . . . Trees under 7" diameter - at least three Trees 10"-18" in diameter - two Trees over 24" in diameter - one could be fine Keep in mind you’ll want to sling each tree as low to the base / ground as possible. Also keep in mind that this is only my personal opinion which is based on my experience where I climb with the species of trees that I use as anchors. I've ripped trees, thousands of trees at that, out of the ground with heavy equipment and will say this. Good ground, good tree, one 7" tree will hold any fall!!!!!! The problem is that you are not an expert at guessing the strength of the rooting abilities of a tree. Just look at the tree first. and think about the ground the tree is rooted in. Anchor low and go for it! When trees are < 3" in diameter I will use three depending on where they are located in proximity to one another. I know less will hold yet it makes others feel better to see more.
Where I climb on the north shore of MN the trees are predominantly birch with small red and white pine. The trees roots atop these cliffs are generally exposed in shallow soil (less than 6") or grown directly into the rock.
The thing to take away from this is different climbing areas have different tress with varying degree of root structure.
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cracklover
Feb 24, 2011, 8:43 PM
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Ugh... typical half-assed responses.
One big tree is plenty strong enough. Your problem is that if the route wanders, you will be scraping the TR anchor rope or webbing all over the place. If the lip of the clifftop has any sharp edges, your anchor rope will certainly get hung up on it.
Much better to do something like this:
The blue line is the anchor material, the red is the climbing rope.
The small tree is what's known as a "directional". If you set it up right the little tree won't have to hold much force (a little less than half) but it will keep the anchor material from moving around over the clifftop.
Cheers,
GO
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kovacs69
Feb 24, 2011, 8:47 PM
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cracklover wrote: Ugh... typical half-assed responses. One big tree is plenty strong enough. Your problem is that if the route wanders, you will be scraping the TR anchor rope or webbing all over the place. If the lip of the clifftop has any sharp edges, your anchor rope will certainly get hung up on it. Much better to do something like this: [IMG]http://i51.tinypic.com/294mjvk.jpg[/IMG] The blue line is the anchor material, the red is the climbing rope. The small tree is what's known as a "directional". If you set it up right the little tree won't have to hold much force (a little less than half) but it will keep the anchor material from moving around over the clifftop. Cheers, GO
Nice Majid style drawing all you are missing are the little army men and arrows.
JB
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Adk
Feb 24, 2011, 9:13 PM
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cracklover wrote: Ugh... typical half-assed responses. One big tree is plenty strong enough. Your problem is that if the route wanders, you will be scraping the TR anchor rope or webbing all over the place. If the lip of the clifftop has any sharp edges, your anchor rope will certainly get hung up on it. Much better to do something like this: The blue line is the anchor material, the red is the climbing rope. The small tree is what's known as a "directional". If you set it up right the little tree won't have to hold much force (a little less than half) but it will keep the anchor material from moving around over the clifftop. Cheers, GO
When possible to avoid damaging a small tree's bark use a piece of pro in rock as a directional. The locals will appreciate you more from this angle as well.
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ClimbSoHigh
Feb 24, 2011, 9:46 PM
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In reply to: One swinging fall could mean curtains. It's very easy to cut a rope under tension
True dat and thanks for the email cut and paste, very informative. I always thought the edge rating was based on quite a large diameter edge (.75mm).
If you have sharp edges to deal with, use webbing instead of a rope. I learned that webbing is better under load over a sharp edge becasue the force is distributed across the entire inch of webbing, rather than focused on 1 very tiny point on a ropes sheath. Not to mention webbing is lighter and cheaper to replace.
In reply to: Trees under 7" diameter - at least three
I've built a 2 leg TR anchor with a 2 inch diameter bomb-proof tree/shrub as 1 point, and a 2 equalized pink tricams as the second... But then I died!
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Cprosser16
Feb 24, 2011, 10:04 PM
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Thanks all the info. The trees there are all very well rooted and very healthy. I have checked all the ones I would possibly use. I just need to go look again and see the location of the smaller ones in relation to the climbs and see if I could use them. I was under the impression that they had to be fairly large trees to be used. I was afraid to use anything smaller than a foot.
There is no problem with the scraping over the edges where I am, cracklover. There are rugs that people have left at the top of the climbs that are about 2 inches thick that you can place underneath the anchor setup to keep from it abrading any. I know not to place the rope over the edge, I said that in my response that I was extending the anchor set up over the cliff edge.
Again, thanks for all the info. Once it gets a bit warmer (not to mention drier, as I am typing this it is raining/sleeting) I am going to go out there and try out some of the trees and setup a few anchors. I am going to see if I can bring along someone from the local rock gyms who have set them up before to check my anchors before I use them.
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patmay81
Feb 24, 2011, 10:09 PM
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sherpa79 wrote: Look at it in another way, a large tree weighs a LOT. The fact is when the tree is on the ground it weighs just as much You couldn't possibly move that much around. If the tree failed away from the cliffs edge you might find yourself getting to the top a little faster than anticipated! So redundancy isn't really necessary.
in a top rope scenario your anchor is holding the climber and belayers weight. you should not by any means anchor to a fallen tree.
look for a bfr, cracks for pro, etc.
Assume the tree weighs 1,000 lb (probably more, maybe less). I can personally move that much weight (rolling, dragging etc.) take into account that most cliffs have a slope at the top, you get gravity contributing.
If you find a dead tree lodged in a crevace or crack (acting like a chock), I'd be comfortable with that, but no free lying trees.
Its not a matter of weight, but possition and security of your BFT/BFR/BFA.
oh, and you wont pull a 2' diameter healthy tree to failure on a top rope anchor.
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cracklover
Feb 24, 2011, 10:43 PM
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Cprosser16 wrote: There is no problem with the scraping over the edges where I am, cracklover. There are rugs that people have left at the top of the climbs that are about 2 inches thick that you can place underneath the anchor setup to keep from it abrading any. I know not to place the rope over the edge, I said that in my response that I was extending the anchor set up over the cliff edge.
I was talking about the anchoring rope. I even drew you a diagram. Sheesh, how dense can you be?
And with a single anchor point and your anchor rope moving around, you can easily knock the rug off. But whatever, do as you please.
In reply to: I am going to see if I can bring along someone from the local rock gyms who have set them up before to check my anchors before I use them.
There ya go. Maybe you'll listen to him.
Cheers,
GO
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Cprosser16
Feb 24, 2011, 11:11 PM
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cracklover wrote: Cprosser16 wrote: There is no problem with the scraping over the edges where I am, cracklover. There are rugs that people have left at the top of the climbs that are about 2 inches thick that you can place underneath the anchor setup to keep from it abrading any. I know not to place the rope over the edge, I said that in my response that I was extending the anchor set up over the cliff edge. I was talking about the anchoring rope. I even drew you a diagram. Sheesh, how dense can you be? And with a single anchor point and your anchor rope moving around, you can easily knock the rug off. But whatever, do as you please. In reply to: I am going to see if I can bring along someone from the local rock gyms who have set them up before to check my anchors before I use them. There ya go. Maybe you'll listen to him. Cheers, GO
I know you were talking about the anchor part of the system. Your drawing was unnecessary, it did not contribute to teaching me. I knew about the set up already. In the OP I just needed to know if using multiple trees was necessary. Plus I don't use rope for the anchor. I use webbing, around the tree and for extension. It is what I was taught to do, and what I am going to do. The only actual rope being used is the climbing rope.
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cracklover
Feb 25, 2011, 5:42 PM
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Cprosser16 wrote: cracklover wrote: Cprosser16 wrote: There is no problem with the scraping over the edges where I am, cracklover. There are rugs that people have left at the top of the climbs that are about 2 inches thick that you can place underneath the anchor setup to keep from it abrading any. I know not to place the rope over the edge, I said that in my response that I was extending the anchor set up over the cliff edge. I was talking about the anchoring rope. I even drew you a diagram. Sheesh, how dense can you be? And with a single anchor point and your anchor rope moving around, you can easily knock the rug off. But whatever, do as you please. In reply to: I am going to see if I can bring along someone from the local rock gyms who have set them up before to check my anchors before I use them. There ya go. Maybe you'll listen to him. Cheers, GO I know you were talking about the anchor part of the system.
Oh really? Then what rope were you talking about when you said:
In reply to: I know not to place the rope over the edge
Because if you knew I was talking about the anchor rope you'd realize that you *are* supposed to place it over the edge.
Anyway, you're still missing the point. Webbing may be better, but it can still get sliced if it moves around under tension. The point (which had not been mentioned until my post) is that if you don't have a second anchor point on your TR setup, with the two opposing each other, you add a significant risk of wearing through your anchor (webbing or rope) up top of the cliff. And this risk is occurring in the worst possible place - up top where you cannot easily monitor it as you are climbing over the course of the day.
I once had a self-belay system in which the anchor incorporated webbing around the bottom of a large boulder. Between when I set it up and when I came back to undo it a couple hours later, a sharp edge I hadn't noticed way under the bottom of the boulder had cut more than halfway through the military spec 1" webbing.
Look, if you know it all already, then please feel free to go do it. I thought you were interested in learning something.
Cheers,
GO
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sp115
Feb 25, 2011, 6:07 PM
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cracklover wrote: ...Anyway, you're still missing the point. Webbing may be better, but it can still get sliced if it moves around under tension.
Yup, and I'm not convinced it is better than rope.
(see the last reply to this post on the other site)
http://www.mountainproject.com/...06990414#a_106990769
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