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rschap
Jul 20, 2010, 2:56 AM
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I just got a letter from Climb Tech advertising there PermaDraws. First question, is it a legitimate company? I’ve never heard of them so I wanted to make sure. Second, are they decent draws? We’ve been talking about hanging permanent draws for leading in our gym and the price looks good on these and they look solid.
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cruxstacean
Jul 20, 2010, 3:28 AM
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you don't need the steel cable for gym use, normal soft dogbones are fine as uv isn't (much) of an issue. plus thick dogbones like the Petzl ones hold the biner more securely for easy clipping.
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rschap
Jul 20, 2010, 3:37 AM
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Right, but I want the steel binners and Fixe’s are like $21, these are $14. The other thing is UV isn’t the only hazard, someone posted a little while ago about the soft slings wearing though because they were rubbing on an edge, not that we would have them on an edge where that would happen. The other thing is these can’t be taken down without tools (i.e. binners are locked on), I don’t think any climber would steal a steel binner but we’ve had kids go into the holds room when it wasn’t locked and start chucking holds at each other. So who knows what people will do?
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spikeddem
Jul 20, 2010, 4:32 AM
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rschap wrote: Right, but I want the steel binners and Fixe’s are like $21, these are $14. The other thing is UV isn’t the only hazard, someone posted a little while ago about the soft slings wearing though because they were rubbing on an edge, not that we would have them on an edge where that would happen. The other thing is these can’t be taken down without tools (i.e. binners are locked on), I don’t think any climber would steal a steel binner but we’ve had kids go into the holds room when it wasn’t locked and start chucking holds at each other. So who knows what people will do?
There are plenty of draws that allow you to put a pin through the bottom 'biner to keep people from stealing the biner.
I think the cable is more of a liability than it is an asset. You mention it bending over an edge as if it would be anymore of a danger indoors as opposed to outdoors? It's not like whoever posted that ridiculous comment thought up something none of the other gym owners in the world had not.
The draws you have will last years. How many draws do you have? Thirty? Honestly, a business should be able to spend an extra $210 on something it's going to have for such a long time.
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acorneau
Jul 20, 2010, 12:30 PM
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First:
Climb Tech is the company that makes the removable bolt and other industrial-grade fall protection gear. They're right here in Texas in the town of Wimberly (just outside of Austin).
http://www.climbtech.com/
Secondly:
We've had several dogbones get severely worn on the concrete walls, mostly where they get pulled up and over an edge or where a gouged quicklink has rotated and chewed away from the inside. Aric has a few that I sent him quite some time ago for testing but he hasn't gotten to them yet.
That being said, I think the traditional nylon dogbones are just fine and are considered by most a semi-consumable that needs to get changed out every once in a while.
If it were an outdoor situation and it were acceptable from a local ethics standpoint then I would absolutely use these.
[edit for typos/grammar]
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 20, 2010, 2:19 PM)
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JimTitt
Jul 20, 2010, 1:11 PM
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As Acorneau says they are a well established company and I´ve got some of their removable bolts (sadly all dead now and they don´t make the 3/8" ones any more which is a real pity).
Wire perma-draws;- we tried some we made up along with chain ones for an outdoor application, customer uptake wasn´t so positive as they seemed funny to clip and most people preferred the 6mm chain ones which is what we ultimately provided. These had some shrink tube on the lowest link to keep the karabiner more rigidly in place but let the upper part flex which makes clipping easier. I´ll post a photo of one tomorrow.
The breaking strain of 12kN is too low and would not be permitted in Europe.
Jim
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2010, 1:53 PM
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rschap wrote: I just got a letter from Climb Tech advertising there PermaDraws. First question, is it a legitimate company? I’ve never heard of them so I wanted to make sure. Second, are they decent draws? We’ve been talking about hanging permanent draws for leading in our gym and the price looks good on these and they look solid.
Regarding plastic covered wire on fixed gear:
Two climbers died tragically in Norway recently, when fixed gear failed because of plastic covered wire that where corroded. The plastic both made the wire corrode, and made the rust difficult to detect.
You can see the picture of the wire on the last page of this pdf
There is also a picture of the shackle on that last page. The text is in Norwegian, sorry.
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j_ung
Jul 20, 2010, 2:45 PM
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Climbtech says their cables are stainless.
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sittingduck
Jul 20, 2010, 2:55 PM
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j_ung wrote: Climbtech says their cables are stainless.
They are probably fine, only how do you tell when the wire is covered in plastic?
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mattm
Jul 20, 2010, 3:00 PM
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For Gyms, go with nylon bones ala Petzl. You've got a MUCH higher chance of newbies grabbing draws on the wall and the cables will have a greater chance of causing injury.
ClimbTech is legit and those draws are finding their way onto the local Austin climbs.
Both Kong and OP make steel biners for gym use. Kong's are stainless and look like a petzl spirit. The OP Gym biner is steel and a wiregate. Also nice.
All gyms should have steel biners.
Edit to Add:
Talk to ClimbTech about just their biners - they look nice. Then just add your draws and Quicklinks and you'll be setup like most any gym. Inspect the nylon regularly and replace as needed. The steel lasts forever it seems.
Personal experience is that the OP wire gate steel feel the best clipping. The gates can get sticky if your gym is really dusty though. The Kong are nice but the gate is stiffer and you'll get more "gate bite" with them. Also prone to sticking if your gym is dirty.
No personal experience with the ClimbTech ones but the capture pin is nice. Theft ON THE WALL is pretty much unheard of, especially with steel biners.
(This post was edited by mattm on Jul 20, 2010, 3:18 PM)
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j_ung
Jul 20, 2010, 5:38 PM
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sittingduck wrote: j_ung wrote: Climbtech says their cables are stainless. They are probably fine, only how do you tell when the wire is covered in plastic?
You mean the clear plastic? 
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sittingduck
Jul 21, 2010, 6:33 AM
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j_ung wrote: sittingduck wrote: j_ung wrote: Climbtech says their cables are stainless. They are probably fine, only how do you tell when the wire is covered in plastic? You mean the clear plastic?
I did not know that the blue plastic was clear. I have only seen this picture with the blue plastic.
How long is that plastic gonna stay clear if left outdoor over time?
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hotgemini
Jul 21, 2010, 9:36 AM
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A nice looking product let down by the mild steel carabiner on an otherwise all stainless product. Fortunately I recently located a manufacturer of EN12275 rated, pin-captive, stainless steel wiregate carabiners. Swapping the mild steel for stainless would turn an okay product into a great one imho.
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acorneau
Jul 21, 2010, 12:59 PM
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hotgemini wrote: A nice looking product let down by the mild steel carabiner on an otherwise all stainless product. Fortunately I recently located a manufacturer of EN12275 rated, pin-captive, stainless steel wiregate carabiners. Swapping the mild steel for stainless would turn an okay product into a great one imho.
And you never told us who you found!
Give up the goods.
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rschap
Jul 21, 2010, 3:53 PM
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I'm not willing to give up safety to save a buck. If there's a product that is comparable for less money I'm going to by it. I think Jim made a good point about it only holding 12 kN, for steel binner that's just too low, and that means the cable is weaker. I guess I'm back to fixe.
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JimTitt
Jul 21, 2010, 6:30 PM
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This is what we supplied to one customer for a practice via ferrta thing, the shrink tube holds the bottom a bit stiffer so it feels more like a normal draw to clip. These ones had 6mm 316 chain as the requirement was only for 25kN (they hold 31kN which is the failure of the karabiner though it´s a bit irrelevant by then!)
The karabiners are a bit harder to clip as the springs are a bit stiffer than normal but this doesn´t seem a problem because no-one has mentioned it yet.
(This post was edited by JimTitt on Jul 21, 2010, 6:32 PM)
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hotgemini
Jul 31, 2010, 6:00 AM
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acorneau wrote: And you never told us who you found! Give up the goods.
I'm just waiting to get them in my greasy mitts before I go putting names out there on the web, I'm still also a bit torn as to whether I name the actual manufacturer/model or whether I simply point people to the vendor I'm purchasing from (who is halfway around the world from the manufacturer) in the hope of sending him some more business as he's gone out of his way to accommodate my needs.
-Adam.
(This post was edited by hotgemini on Jul 31, 2010, 6:00 AM)
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mattm
Jul 31, 2010, 8:51 PM
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hotgemini wrote: acorneau wrote: And you never told us who you found! Give up the goods. I'm just waiting to get them in my greasy mitts before I go putting names out there on the web, I'm still also a bit torn as to whether I name the actual manufacturer/model or whether I simply point people to the vendor I'm purchasing from (who is halfway around the world from the manufacturer) in the hope of sending him some more business as he's gone out of his way to accommodate my needs. -Adam.
A quick review would be sweet - I know I'm not the only one interested it what you've found. IF you've gone through a vendor, you might as well post their info ALONG with the company since it sounds like others interested will need both bits to obtain some of their own. Thanks!
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mattm
Mar 8, 2011, 12:08 AM
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JimTitt wrote: As Acorneau says they are a well established company and I´ve got some of their removable bolts (sadly all dead now and they don´t make the 3/8" ones any more which is a real pity). Wire perma-draws;- we tried some we made up along with chain ones for an outdoor application, customer uptake wasn´t so positive as they seemed funny to clip and most people preferred the 6mm chain ones which is what we ultimately provided. These had some shrink tube on the lowest link to keep the karabiner more rigidly in place but let the upper part flex which makes clipping easier. I´ll post a photo of one tomorrow. The breaking strain of 12kN is too low and would not be permitted in Europe. Jim
Jim, if you haven't already, you should shoot Climb Tech and email and see about them making some 3/8in ones for you. Everything I've heard and read says that these guys are SUPER nice and accommodating to climber's needs. you never know.
Also just noticed that they've rolled out a 22kN wire draw and some chain ones as well. Nice. Never likes those 12kN ones
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boadman
Mar 9, 2011, 7:49 PM
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JimTitt wrote: As Acorneau says they are a well established company and I´ve got some of their removable bolts (sadly all dead now and they don´t make the 3/8" ones any more which is a real pity). Wire perma-draws;- we tried some we made up along with chain ones for an outdoor application, customer uptake wasn´t so positive as they seemed funny to clip and most people preferred the 6mm chain ones which is what we ultimately provided. These had some shrink tube on the lowest link to keep the karabiner more rigidly in place but let the upper part flex which makes clipping easier. I´ll post a photo of one tomorrow. The breaking strain of 12kN is too low and would not be permitted in Europe. Jim
Seems like 12kn is more than strong enough for any gym fall.
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shockabuku
Mar 10, 2011, 4:21 PM
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I climb in a gym that just got these. In general they are fine but I have noted two issues.
1. The quick link is narrow so when they get knocked around on the bolt hanger they tend to not fall back into place more than a larger biner/quicklink.
2. This is weird and hard to appreciate until it happens to you. The nose of the biner is unusually long; as measured along the long axis of the biner it is farther from the bottom of the basket. So, it's a little harder to clip from some angles because you have to lift the rope up a little higher, relative to the basket, to get the rope in the gate.
Other than that they seem fine and I've taken a few falls on them. I can't say much about the long term reliability.
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vegastradguy
Mar 10, 2011, 4:23 PM
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boadman wrote: JimTitt wrote: As Acorneau says they are a well established company and I´ve got some of their removable bolts (sadly all dead now and they don´t make the 3/8" ones any more which is a real pity). Wire perma-draws;- we tried some we made up along with chain ones for an outdoor application, customer uptake wasn´t so positive as they seemed funny to clip and most people preferred the 6mm chain ones which is what we ultimately provided. These had some shrink tube on the lowest link to keep the karabiner more rigidly in place but let the upper part flex which makes clipping easier. I´ll post a photo of one tomorrow. The breaking strain of 12kN is too low and would not be permitted in Europe. Jim Seems like 12kn is more than strong enough for any gym fall.
their website rates them to 16kn.
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JimTitt
Mar 10, 2011, 6:33 PM
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Looks like the whole range has had a makeover, alloy biners and aircraft galvanised cable now and two new strength ratings, 16 & 22kN.
And chain permadraws as well.
Jim
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mrtristan
Mar 10, 2011, 8:34 PM
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I have some of Climb Tech's removable bolts, too. They're great. They're an established company that makes solid gear. I think these days they're leaning more toward industrial/rescue gear; that's why we don't hear much about them.
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shoo
Mar 10, 2011, 8:34 PM
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My gym has been slowly replacing our old draws with these guys.
First off, for those who think that nylon is the bomb.com in the gym, you have no idea just how much abuse those poor draws go through. The nylon draws get absolutely WRECKED sometimes. Let's just say that I've personally replaced a couple that were pretty, erm, special. Hell, you wouldn't believe the damage I've seen on the quicklinks themselves, let alone the dogbones. . .
As for the permadraws, I have mixed feelings about them.
Firstly, they are burly and look fucking indestructible. I can't possibly imagine anything on these receiving any kind of significant damage.
The 'biners themselves are a bit interesting. Notchless gate is a nice touch, gate action out of the box is solid feeling. Maybe a hair stiffer than I'd prefer, but it's a gym draw, so whatever. No clue how well the gate action will hold up in the long term. The 'biner as a whole feels strangely large. It's a bit nicer to use the rope over the thumb clip than the middle finger holds, the biner, index and thumb clip the rope version.
The draws themselves are insanely stiff. The shorter ones are basically metal and plastic sticks as far as I'm concerned.
And I'll save my biggest complaint for the last: I am afraid to grab them. The space between the plastic and the metal scares the piss out of me. I can easily see myself grabbing the draw and pinching my skin in that little gap. A little tape fixes this.
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