I decked almost a year ago. 30 footer in a climbing gym onto a hard surface. Let go of the holds while my belayer didn't have proper control of the rope. Broke my back and bruised my heels (very painful). My fault.
Not your fault. Not. Your. Fault. I repeat: Not your fault.
Two summers ago I started climbing, and happened upon a small, super solid cliff band that was begging for development. Being a relative beginner, I used a really common set up to rap and clean these routes: single-strand rap with a GriGri. Well, I made the same mistake so many beginners do, and put all my trust in that device. I was no more than 10-12 feet above the ground, GriGri locked up, brushing dirt off a hold when "what the..." entered my mind. I don't really remember what the fall or impact felt like, but I do remember laying in a group of ferns flat on my back, afraid to move. I landed in a massive ostrich fern, on super soft PA soil. I was pissed that I would have to walk back around the little face to finish cleaning, when I started to realize how lucky I was. It could have happened 30 feet off the deck, or I could have landed on a number of odd angled sandstone boulders. I've never put 100% trust in anything since then.
I never figured out if I disengaged the cam by bumping it or unweighting it, but I have always tied a back up knot since. Moral of the story- there is no such thing as an auto-locking belay device.
This sounds pretty fishy to me. I've spent hundreds of hours hanging off a single rope with a gri-gri cleaning routes, sometimes hundreds of feet up, with no mishaps. I trust my gri gri 100% in this application.
You've been climbing longer than I've been alive, so what you choose to believe and do is obviously built on much more knowledge than I have.
However, I would like to say that in my small group of climbing friends, I'm not even the only person this has happened to. Same scenario, except that it happened to a woman who weighs about 95 pounds and was using an old 10.2 that was slick and worn into 9.2 shape.
There are numerous other examples of this happening that are posted all over the web. Failure of the device to engage, when there is no "shock load" on the system.
I would just like to raise the point, obvious though it may be, that there are those who are not on rc.com because they decked and died, or were so injured, either physically or emotionally, that they can no longer climb.
Those people deserve a voice. Though they cannot answer your question - it would be wise of you to take heed of them, too.
TR in on them is widely accepted as safe practice, I am a little more reserved in my thinking here. As for leading on a toothed device, or a non engineered piece of belay equipment, I believe the risks far outweigh the cost of a specialty piece of gear.
Very good point, I for one am a pansy on lead when using a belayer, so I have no ambition to ever lead on a toothed ascender (terrible idea), or any device for that matter. Maybee I'll solo aid one day, but thats unlikely. I remember reading an A&I report about a caver who was leading on a stich-plate/toothed ascender rig when a RB pulled and the ascender cut the rope killing the caver. Good enough reason for me to never risk any sort of a fall onto a toothed ascender.
And thanks for the link Healyje. Good reading on the topic. I think I will use my petzl basic next time off a chest sling above my modified mini trax. I like redundancy, which is why I have only rope solo'ed very easy climbs to build endurance, but have never come close to falling. With the second ascender, held up by the sling, I feel better about soloing some harder climbs that I might actually fall on.
Also I like the note to make sure you are not wearing any loose clothing. When climbing with just 1 minitrax, I usually checked it after almost every move to make sure nothing is interfeering with the cam action. Having nothing loose is a great extra step to avoid something similar to what happened to the OP in the link.
I would just like to raise the point, obvious though it may be, that there are those who are not on rc.com because they decked and died, or were so injured, either physically or emotionally, that they can no longer climb.
Those people deserve a voice. Though they cannot answer your question - it would be wise of you to take heed of them, too.
GO
I think the OP understands that, you don't have a serious accident without it affecting you. But I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.
And as I wrote that last paragraph I cringe at how loaded the word "quit" is. Going through a climbing accident can open your eyes to the seriousness of the activity. Considering how high the stakes can be, I don't look down on those who have "quit" and respect and understand their decision.
I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.
I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:
In reply to:
now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?
The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.
But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.
But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Apr 12, 2011, 5:29 PM)
Same scenario, except that it happened to a woman who weighs about 95 pounds and was using an old 10.2 that was slick and worn into 9.2 shape.
I think this is the first time I have heard of a rope wearing skinnier and slicker. The only thing I can think of is that the rope had perhaps become glazed from a hot rap.
Also, I wouldn't describe your deck as a failure of the device or a failure to autolock. A grigri will unlock every time if you interfere with the cam. It is rather easy to do this if you are futzing around with other things on the rope, or a bunch of jingus hanging off you. A backup is a good idea.
I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.
I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:
In reply to:
now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?
The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.
But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.
But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.
GO
I find the posts by you and GG to really be more complimentary than anything. The reasons people keep climbing appear to be more nuanced than those who quit, if only because there are so many choices about how to climb and which risks to take on or avoid. For that reason I think the climbers who are still active are likely to dominate the discussion, but the attrition factor is also significant.
Already though this informal survey has painted a clear picture that decking effects more than a small minority of accident-prone climbers.
If my tone has come across as arrogant because I still intend to continue climbing in a similar way or because I believe that the first line of protection is enough for some cases, then I would invite you to re-evaluate your own approach to climbing. All of us who climb make a calculated set of choices to take on levels of risk that the majority of the world shies away from, and we all depend on parts of a safety system that have no back up. If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.
I am indeed keenly interested in the stories of those who are no longer here to tell them, you can't exactly ask all the folks who paid the ultimate price to chime in and tell me what they've learned from it, so I have asked for those who may have come close.
I think info from people that have gone through the experiance and how/why they came back from it is likely more helpful to the OP (who obviously wants to keep climbing) than stories of those who have quit.
I'm sorry to belabor the point, but here's what he actually asked in his OP:
In reply to:
now I'm hoping to get some perspective. How many of you folks out there have decked for one reason or another, and what was that reason? How bad was it?
The responses are going to be rather one-sided, due to the obvious. So don't worry, he'll get plenty of "how I overcame adversity". And yet what he asked for was perspective. Not a word one usually associates with white-washing.
But perhaps you're right, and all the OP wants to hear is happy stories of recovery and redemption. In fact, feel free to encourage him to go back to carefree rope soloing with no backup systems, which seems to be his first instinct.
But something tells me that if those who cannot speak here could be heard... you'd sure get some perspective then. The OP got a second chance. Not everyone does. Food for thought.
GO
Do you really think he's into carefree rope soloing? You talk like this whole experience was nothing for him.
Maybe I have a little more faith in people, and I'm pretty sure I have quite a bit more perspective on this subject, but I'm assuming he has a lot of questions about himself and his climbing right now and just trying to sort through some things. Maybe I'm just optimistic.
As for my perspective and what I want to bring to this thread: climbing is dangerous. Doesn't matter how careful you are, if you lead, TR solo etc there's a chance you can get hurt. It's the nature of the game. Frankly, I had to go through a lot of issues (still going through some head issues and a few minor physical ones) after I got hurt, but I decided that climbing was important enough to me that I didn't want to do anything else.
It can be a scary thing when you realize how vulnerable you are with this passion, but it's also scary if you choose to step back into it with eyes a lot more open.
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Apr 12, 2011, 8:09 PM)
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask. If the climbers you speak of are gym climbers with a year or so of climbing under their belts, then that may be accurate, but I'm more interested in climbers whose experience more closely relates to mine.
I can't speak for all the climbers that I know and have climbed with, but I have been climbing for over 15 years and I am often one of the least experienced people that I climb with. Of all of those people, I can only think of one that I know for sure has decked, and she is relatively new, and was dropped by someone else who was described as "relatively new". There may be people I climb with that have never told me about hitting the ground, I guess it's something the average person might not broadcast. I have seen two people hit the ground. They were not people I knew, and they were both very clearly dropped by gumby belayers. I would still be shocked if even 5% of the climbers that I know well and have climbed with have hit the ground.
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
There may be people I climb with that have never told me about hitting the ground, I guess it's something the average person might not broadcast.
I don't know if it's so much an issue of "broadcasting" it or not. Of the 6 people I climb with most often, I'm pretty sure I've only told 3 of them about when I pulled gear and hit the ground. Not because I don't want them to know but because it was 6 years ago. It just doesn't come up.
The reasons people keep climbing appear to be more nuanced than those who quit, if only because there are so many choices about how to climb and which risks to take on or avoid. For that reason I think the climbers who are still active are likely to dominate the discussion, but the attrition factor is also significant.
So it's not that the people who decked and were disabled, killed, or scarred for life, had the very choice of whether to continue climbing or not ripped away from them forever. No, it's just that their stories are too boring. That's why they're not logging on and creating accounts on a website about a sport they once could participate in. That's why they're not flocking to respond to your thread.
In reply to:
If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
But that's not my point. It's totally up to you to draw what lessons you see fit from your accident. We each have a different process we go through.
My point is simply that as you gather the input from folks who've come close here, remember to take into consideration the people who aren't here to answer, and the stories they might tell.
This day I boulder harder than ever but have almost completely stopped roped climbing. There is simply noone I can/want to trust. Even free soloing is more appealing, and I solo the occasional route when it feels right.
...If you kill yourself while climbing, you're an idiot. If you have an accident that could have killed you, you're also an idiot. The most important thing about climbing is simply not to die.
If someone considers the risks involved in some given type of climbing and decides it is not for them, to each their own. I would encourage all climbers to give more thought to the dangers involved.
My comment would be that regardless of how safety conscious you all, people are not perfect and accidents will happen. Is someone an idiot because they went out to diner and some other driver killed them? Going out to diner is recreational in a way that commutting to work is not.
I decked from about thirty feet up, error-in-the-belay-chain, and got a nice heli ride out and a year+ recovery (when I could get from the bed to the wheelchair on my own was a major step). I didn't see climbing as being any more dangerous after my accident as I did before and I still enjoyed it and after a few years was climbing better than ever.
peace
(This post was edited by sspssp on Apr 12, 2011, 9:21 PM)
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask.
Wait, so you really are looking for validation? You want to hear that "Everyone does it. It's just something that happens. Don't worry, it sucks, but you'll get through it, just like we did." Is that it?
I bet I've climbed with 100 people closely enough to know their history. Of them, exactly one (BEC) has decked. Gail, too, but while we've met, I've never actually climbed with her. So I can't join in the chorus of folks saying "It's normal, it happens."
And if it seems I'm being negative, I'm sorry. I'm taking a rather unpopular position, I know, since this is such a fresh accident.
Let me just be clear that on a personal level, I'm very glad you're ok, and I trust that you'll make whatever changes/choices are right for you.
If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
But that's not my point. It's totally up to you to draw what lessons you see fit from your accident. We each have a different process we go through.
My point is simply that as you gather the input from folks who've come close here, remember to take into consideration the people who aren't here to answer, and the stories they might tell.
GO
I don't think milesenoell's response (as he phrased it, "to focus on the first line of defense") is any different from what we see when a belayer drops a climber. The fault in both cases is user error and no ones first response to a climber getting dropped is that we should all starting having our belays backedup. "Experienced" climbers drop people, or are themselves dropped much more often than TR solo rigs fail but you don't see two-man belay teams becoming the norm.
Instead, we focus on training, understanding proper gear function and checking and then re-checking the rig for proper setup. Which closely mirrors milesenoell's response to his accident.
Oh and relax a bit. You seem to be pretty agitated by what has been, IMO, a rather thoughtful and measured response to his accident.
(This post was edited by notapplicable on Apr 12, 2011, 10:49 PM)
If you think I am foolhardy for focusing my attention on the first line of defense while making choices that lead me closer to harms way and can't see the parallel in yourself then I would suggest you suffer from severe myopia.
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
But that's not my point. It's totally up to you to draw what lessons you see fit from your accident. We each have a different process we go through.
My point is simply that as you gather the input from folks who've come close here, remember to take into consideration the people who aren't here to answer, and the stories they might tell.
GO
I don't think milesenoell's response (as he phrased it, "to focus on the first line of defense") is any different from what we see when a belayer drops a climber. The fault in both cases is user error and no ones first response to a climber getting dropped is that we should all starting having our belays backedup. "Experienced" climbers drop people, or are themselves dropped much more often than TR solo rigs fail but you don't see two-man belay teams becoming the norm.
Instead, we focus on training, understanding proper gear function and checking and then re-checking the rig for proper setup. Which closely mirrors milesenoell's response to his accident.
Oh and relax a bit. You seem to be pretty agitated by what has been, IMO, a rather thoughtful and measured response to his accident.
I still think these two situations are completely different. With a belayer, you at least have two people to "focus on the first line of defense". Both belayer and climber ensure that everything is rigged correctly. The climber should have assessed the belayer's skill and deemed them acceptable to climb with. And the belayer only has to focus on one thing...belaying. When soloing, only one person to check the system...this obviously failed. The person climbing a solo-rig is also focusing on climbing, their self belay doesn't get their full attention as it would (should) from a live belayer.
I guess I feel like rope solo-rigs are about the same as climbing with a belayer I don't fully trust. In either case, I back it/them up, or find a belayer that I do fully trust, or treat the climb as if I am truly soloing (no rope).
And I'm kind on board with what Gabe is saying. It's unpopular, but what he's trying to say is that decking isn't common, and if it has happened then you and/or your belayer really did screw up. If the lesson you learn from decking is that "you'll just pay better attention to your system next time" and not change anything about it, then I don't think you've really learned any lesson at all.
edit: after reading the OP's post below, I'd say my above statement might be a bit over the top. He sounds like he is open to evaluating his system and I'm sure will be in a better position to re-evaluate his solo rig.
(This post was edited by csproul on Apr 12, 2011, 11:44 PM)
Do you really believe the results of your poll? I don't believe that anywhere near 49% of all climbers have decked. Of the dozens of climbers I know, I'll bet that no more than 1 or 2 have hit the ground.
Drawing strong conclusions about the proportion of climbers who have decked from such a small sample size is ridiculous, but noting that dozens of climbers, including seasoned veterans, have reported personally decking I do see as significant. Just from the numbers here I'd be suspicious of the veracity of your assertion that only 1 or 2 out of "dozens" of climbers have ever decked, but I am coming from a position of curiosity rather than one of authority on the subject. That's why I decided to ask.
Wait, so you really are looking for validation? You want to hear that "Everyone does it. It's just something that happens. Don't worry, it sucks, but you'll get through it, just like we did." Is that it?
I bet I've climbed with 100 people closely enough to know their history. Of them, exactly one (BEC) has decked. Gail, too, but while we've met, I've never actually climbed with her. So I can't join in the chorus of folks saying "It's normal, it happens."
And if it seems I'm being negative, I'm sorry. I'm taking a rather unpopular position, I know, since this is such a fresh accident.
Let me just be clear that on a personal level, I'm very glad you're ok, and I trust that you'll make whatever changes/choices are right for you.
GO
No, I am not looking for validation. I am looking at system failures.
When my system failed it lead me to ask a lot of questions of myself about what contributed to the failure. It seems a natural next step to ask others.
I didn't post here because I believe a poll is a useful tool. I am far more interested in the posts and simply stuck the poll on for entertainment. Judging by the popularity of "pancakes" as an option in many polls on here you would have to be a fool to believe that these polls are accurate. I do however believe that the posts on here are genuine.
and in regard to this:
In reply to:
Then I guess I must be myopic indeed. In my climbing career, I've had one time where I seriously fucked up, and had to watch the consequences unfold. I was, I think, suitably hard on myself for my choices. At no point did I think "well, everything I did was fine, I just should have done it better." Instead, from the instant I became aware that things might go south, through the event as it unfolded, and still as years passed, my thoughts were centered around fixing, changing, improving, and how to avoid even finding myself in that situation again.
Yes, this is exactly the myopia I was referring to. If you fuck up again I'd hope that the thought would occur to you that despite your efforts to ensure safety you knowingly engaged in a completely unnecessary risk who's costs are paid in no small part by those around you.
In posting my story I made it clear that I was interested in making my rig more secure. My choice of wording in saying that my rig doesn't include back up knots or a second device seems to have given the mistaken impression that those weren't measures I was seriously considering, but that was partially conscious as my intent is to focus on the first line of protection.
Overall I think it's kind of telling that people seem to be expecting this to be about me trying to garner sympathy and support. As I mentioned earlier, my head was largely spared the trauma that so many other climbers go through. My accident was not very severe and support has come at every turn, so I am really not seeking support here. I am seeking the perspective borne of experience as I re-evaluate my approach to climbing.
PS--Normally I resonate quite a bit with your posts Gabe, but your recent tone is surprising to me. I am a bit suspicious that you are reading something into my posts that relates to your own experiences rather than mine.
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Apr 13, 2011, 12:07 AM)
I had a rap/tr solo anchor fail early in my career. I feel 40 feet to the deck. I broke my pelvis, wrist, and 3 bones in my foot. I was flown out, spent 10 days in the hospital, and 3 months without walking. It was 6 months before I could climb again, but I did get back at it and have been climbing hard for almost 10 years since that.
I also had a slip low on a route in yos, I had one piece in but I was too high above it and landed on the ledge hard. I got a good scrape and shook my confidence but other than that I was fine.
I definitely learned alot from my big accident. I always give my pieces a good tug now and I place in multiple places, and I don't cut corners, ever. (I placed a 2 piece anchor under a loose block)
I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.
In 37 years of climbing I've known one person who's decked actually climbing and that was both someone I've known for that entire time and an incident that happened quite recently. It was also a situation where he wouldn't have fallen if he'd simply free-soloed it instead of dicking around rope-soloing a hard line with a low crux (always a bad idea for roped-soloing). Fortunately he recovered fine. Over that same period I've known two other climbers who died descending fourth class terrain on foot.
By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).
That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.
Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 13, 2011, 2:42 AM)
I think for the old folks around here that this thread, while not entirely unexpected, is still fairly horrifying.
In 37 years of climbing I've known one person who's decked actually climbing and that was both someone I've known for that entire time and an incident that happened quite recently. It was also a situation where he wouldn't have fallen if he'd simply free-soloed it instead of dicking around rope-soloing a hard line with a low crux (always a bad idea for roped-soloing). Fortunately he recovered fine. Over that same period I've known two other climbers who died descending fourth class terrain on foot.
By and large, that this many of you have decked says a lot about the training and indoctrination - or the lack thereof - associated with climbing today. In general I would basically lay all this on the rapid introduction to climbing associated with gyms and sport climbing. You get up to speed on the movement faster then you develop the requisite experience and wherewithal that used to come from an extended mentoring period seconding experience [trad] leaders. I'm also guessing distractions associated with today's highly socialized climbing scene plays into this as well (as in the STFUAB factor).
That's not to say all of us old folk haven't had close calls, but actually decking? That was an extremely rare event and rarely one a person lived through from what I've seen and experienced over the years.
Times they are a'changing. Be careful out there...!
Thank you. I've been holding off on responding to this thread simply because it's turning my stomach. You have an additional 17 years on me. I've never decked. The people I routinely climb with haven't decked, and trust me, these guys are legends. This massive rush that is going on these days so people can call themselves "climbers" is scary. It's takes YEARS to build the intuition and experience required to keep things like this from happening.
Somebody earlier in the thread divulged that they were "teaching" a class and let the student lower them. They decked as a result. Then somebody chimes in how it was not their fault. BULLSHIT. The poster was right, he was completely at fault. YOU NEVER LET A STUDENT/CLIENT LOWER YOU, EVER.
When I first started on the reincarnation of JOSAR here in Josh in 2000, they had not had a death in the park in over 8 years. And that death was not climbing related. For the 7 years I ran the team we had at least one death a season, and many critical life threating climbing injuries requiring immediate heli evacs.
People getting in way over their heads long before they have a clue as to what they were doing.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Apr 13, 2011, 4:25 AM)
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