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jonlong
Apr 20, 2011, 2:52 PM
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I've been climbing indoors for a while and I'm ready to take my new hobby outdoors (Red River Gorge). I'll be taking the lead climbing class at my gym soon so that I can practice with my partner/belayer for a while before we try it on real rock. I have been doing a lot of research online and talking with experienced climbers to get as much information as possible, but I'm still pretty worried about getting hurt.
I plan on climbing only sport routes, and only those near or within my ability to minimize my chance of falling. I'll be using a stick clip to make sure I don't deck while trying to reach the first bolt. My belayer and I will be erring on the side of slowly feeding rope when reaching for a draw, rather than having abundant slack while climbing. I'm aware of backclipping, so I'll make sure to always feed the rope properly through the draws. We'll be using a GriGri and both my belayer and I are attentive while belaying and we communicate well while climbing (though we have only top roped so far, but will be practicing communication while leading in the gym soon).
So my question is this - What other things should I be aware of to help keep myself safe? Are there any factors that safe climbing practices don't address, such as gear failures? My rope and draws will all be new, so I'm not worried about those being worn. Do bolts ever rip out of the rock? Do most climbers and/or belayers wear helmets? Anything I'm not thinking of?
Thanks!
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redonkulus
Apr 20, 2011, 3:10 PM
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jonlong wrote: I've been climbing indoors for a while and I'm ready to take my new hobby outdoors (Red River Gorge). I'll be taking the lead climbing class at my gym soon so that I can practice with my partner/belayer for a while before we try it on real rock. I have been doing a lot of research online and talking with experienced climbers to get as much information as possible, but I'm still pretty worried about getting hurt. I plan on climbing only sport routes, and only those near or within my ability to minimize my chance of falling. I'll be using a stick clip to make sure I don't deck while trying to reach the first bolt. My belayer and I will be erring on the side of slowly feeding rope when reaching for a draw, rather than having abundant slack while climbing. I'm aware of backclipping, so I'll make sure to always feed the rope properly through the draws. We'll be using a GriGri and both my belayer and I are attentive while belaying and we communicate well while climbing (though we have only top roped so far, but will be practicing communication while leading in the gym soon). So my question is this - What other things should I be aware of to help keep myself safe? Are there any factors that safe climbing practices don't address, such as gear failures? My rope and draws will all be new, so I'm not worried about those being worn. Do bolts ever rip out of the rock? Do most climbers and/or belayers wear helmets? Anything I'm not thinking of? Thanks!
Z-clipping, which your lead class will surely address, is dangerous. It's not unheard of for a bolt to fail, but usually there will be some warning signs. If the hanger of the bolt is loose, you may need to tighten that bolt. If the bolt is exceptionally rusty, you might not want to trust it. Here's a link to a website that discusses how to tell if a bolt is good or not. http://www.safeclimbing.org/...tion/bomberbolts.htm
Generally, though, I think you are far too worried about it. Most sport climbs are well bolted, so a fall won't be awful, and you would have to really screw some stuff up to deck. Bolts, especially in well traveled areas like the Red, are almost definitely gonna be pretty bomber. It sounds like you have a fear of falling, which is normal for someone just starting to lead. I can assure you though, that a fall is never as bad as you imagine it to be. Usually, you are climbing, something goes wrong, and then you realize that you are hanging on the rope a few feet below your last bolt. It's not really very scary.
Wearing a helmet is never a bad idea. There could be rockfall, you could fall with your leg behind the rope (especially as a beginner, until it's second nature to keep that leg clear) and flip, hitting your head on the rock. Lots of stuff could happen that could make you want a helmet. Most climbers don't use one because they feel comfortable enough without, but if you want one, then don't be ashamed to wear it. It just means you're smarter than all the cool kids.
If you fall while clipping the first bolt, unless it is really high up there, you'll probably only fall as far as you would if you were bouldering in a gym. Have your partner spot you until you get the first bolt. Once you get started leading, you'll see that most of your fears were silly and irrational. Always use good judgement, though, and you should be fine. If it's gonna scare the crap out of you to climb some route, and those fears are rational, then don't climb it.
Finally, most people would scoff at the idea of sport climbing being dangerous. There certainly isn't the edge to it that trad has, in my opinion.
P.S. I hope I'm not being trolled!
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shotwell
Apr 20, 2011, 3:12 PM
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jonlong wrote: I've been climbing indoors for a while and I'm ready to take my new hobby outdoors (Red River Gorge). I'll be taking the lead climbing class at my gym soon so that I can practice with my partner/belayer for a while before we try it on real rock. I have been doing a lot of research online and talking with experienced climbers to get as much information as possible, but I'm still pretty worried about getting hurt. I plan on climbing only sport routes, and only those near or within my ability to minimize my chance of falling. I'll be using a stick clip to make sure I don't deck while trying to reach the first bolt. My belayer and I will be erring on the side of slowly feeding rope when reaching for a draw, rather than having abundant slack while climbing. I'm aware of backclipping, so I'll make sure to always feed the rope properly through the draws. We'll be using a GriGri and both my belayer and I are attentive while belaying and we communicate well while climbing (though we have only top roped so far, but will be practicing communication while leading in the gym soon). So my question is this - What other things should I be aware of to help keep myself safe? Are there any factors that safe climbing practices don't address, such as gear failures? My rope and draws will all be new, so I'm not worried about those being worn. Do bolts ever rip out of the rock? Do most climbers and/or belayers wear helmets? Anything I'm not thinking of? Thanks!
You should definitely be competent at 'cleaning' the anchor at the top of a route. If you don't know what I'm saying, you need instruction. You can't learn it over the net; you need someone competent to teach you.
In addition, your belay skills had better be adequate. There have been a rash of accidents in the Red from unskilled belays. The consequences are real, so you need to be damn sure you're ready. The people in your gym probably aren't qualified to say whether your belay is adequate, time and time again this has proven to be true. Do your research, learn what can go wrong with the GriGri, and make damn sure you're not doing anything wrong. Check out this manual to make sure you're not using any of the obvious failure modes.
http://www.petzl.com/...or/grigri-experience
Don't become a statistic. If you have ANY doubt about your ability to catch your partner or for him to catch you, don't go. Seriously. It is far too great a responsibility to undertake if you're not solid. If you have any doubts, get some instruction from a qualified guide.
(This post was edited by shotwell on Apr 20, 2011, 3:13 PM)
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bearbreeder
Apr 20, 2011, 3:15 PM
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dont get yr feet caught behind the rope and invert ... particularly on traverses ... learn to warn yr partner of those situations
learn when to give a soft belay and when to keep yr partner tight
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darkgift06
Apr 20, 2011, 3:21 PM
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Your gonna hate it when you are close to pumped & trying to pull an arm length of slack to clip & your partner is short roping you.... Happened to me last night & I took a 20 footer kuz I didn't make the clip.
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blueeyedclimber
Apr 20, 2011, 3:53 PM
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Jon, if you are looking for ways to guarantee your safety, then perhaps you have chosen the wrong sport.
But, with that said, you may be over thinking it, but that is much better than under thinking it. As you gain the proper skills and experience, you will probably lighten up a little.
Climbing safely, IMO, is about 3 things:
1. Competence - knowing the proper skills and how to apply them in normal climbing scenarios. Even the most routine fall can end in disaster if your competence was not up to par. (i.e. Did you fall on gear before learning to place correctly?, Did you not know that the rope should never be behind your leg?)
2. Risk Acceptance - Every climber accepts a certain amount of risk. Some climbers are willing to accept more, some less. This is totally personal and is up to you and your partners. Climbing safely depends on not accepting more than you can manage.
3. Risk Management - Being able to apply your skills in reaction to the risk that you accept.
Josh
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jonlong
Apr 20, 2011, 3:58 PM
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Thanks for all the info so far!
To the first responder, you're not being trolled. I enjoy a lot outdoor sports, and they all carry fairly significant risks, but climbing seems to be the most binary. By that I mean that there doesn't seem to be a wide range of severity of accidents; it's either very minor or very severe. So I'm willing to accept some level of risk, I just want to make sure that I can climb comfortably knowing that my belayer and I are doing everything properly.
Thanks, too, for the link about the bolts. That was informative.
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ClimbSoHigh
Apr 20, 2011, 4:02 PM
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These are some things you should be proficient at BEFORE going.
- Belaying
- Safety checks and commands with partner.
- Avoiding back clipping.
- Avoiding Z clipping.
- Avoiding getting inverted (no rope behind leg)
- Cleaning anchors safely that need to be threaded. (not quick clips)
- How to inspect a bolt/hanger/permadraw.
This is not a complete list by any means, but some key things to focus on that are very important when getting into sport climbing. Remember to keep your ego in check, if you are not sure about something, do not wing it. If your worried about getting injured, bring your brain bucket. No matter what, bring your brain.
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dagibbs
Apr 21, 2011, 4:27 PM
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jonlong wrote: Thanks for all the info so far! To the first responder, you're not being trolled. I enjoy a lot outdoor sports, and they all carry fairly significant risks, but climbing seems to be the most binary. By that I mean that there doesn't seem to be a wide range of severity of accidents; it's either very minor or very severe. So I'm willing to accept some level of risk, I just want to make sure that I can climb comfortably knowing that my belayer and I are doing everything properly. Thanks, too, for the link about the bolts. That was informative.
No climbing isn't quite that binary -- but that's what gets talked about.
Over-use/abuse injuries are pretty common -- muscle and tendon.
I, personally, have broken an ankle, and sprained an ankle pretty soundly in climbing falls. Both were lead falls, where the gear held, the belay caught my fall, but in the fall I caught a foot on an edge as I fell and it was enough to torque the ankle to the point of damage. I'd put both injuries in between your very minor and very severe categories. (The broken ankle was sport, the sprain was a gear lead -- but it doesn't much matter, the gear held fine on the gear lead.)
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justanotherclimber
Apr 21, 2011, 5:09 PM
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this:
jonlong wrote: My belayer and I will be erring on the side of slowly feeding rope when reaching for a draw,
can get you hurt just as easily as this:
In reply to: rather than having abundant slack while climbing.
learn how to pay out slack quickly for a clip, as well as taking back in excessive slack after the clip.
also learn the difference between excessive slack and the right amount of slack.
Now, go back and read blueeyedclimbers post again.
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dudlej01
Apr 21, 2011, 5:51 PM
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justanotherclimber wrote: this: jonlong wrote: My belayer and I will be erring on the side of slowly feeding rope when reaching for a draw, can get you hurt just as easily as this: In reply to: rather than having abundant slack while climbing. learn how to pay out slack quickly for a clip, as well as taking back in excessive slack after the clip. also learn the difference between excessive slack and the right amount of slack. Now, go back and read blueeyedclimbers post again.
+1 on this. It is pretty nasty to be waiting for slack when trying to clip.
Also, though it is counter-intuitive, often it is a better option to climb up to the bolt and clip when it is waist to chest high, rather than clipping it as soon as it is within reach. This is because you need less slack so will not fall as low if you fall when clipping.
Of course, you need to use your judgement here, but something to bear in mind, as the first instinct, especially when just starting leading, is to clip as soon as possible.
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Mariofercol
Apr 21, 2011, 6:47 PM
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I would suggest you try climbing with some experienced climbers the first few times you go outdoors. There are a few things that they will probably won't teach you on a gym.
Routes outdoors, particularly low grade climbs are sometimes more run out than harder ones. You should be able to inspect the integrity of the rock, but even after that holds breaking is not uncommon.
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jawaeater
Apr 21, 2011, 10:41 PM
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One other thing to be aware of is exposure and possible ledges you could hit if you were to fall while clipping a bolt. Ive been sport climbing for years and have never been injured, and think its fairly safe. Also make sure who you are climbing with outdoors know what they are doing. Ive seen way to many people do stupid things. Just climb smart and safe.
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phone
Apr 21, 2011, 11:46 PM
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I'd also add Escaping a Belay to that list. It's pretty simple if you practice. When there's no one else around and you can't lower partner to the ground, you'll be glad you learned it.
Not to say you *need* to know it, but something to look into because like I said, it's useful and easy to do with practice.
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ENARE
Apr 22, 2011, 12:12 AM
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A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about.
http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/
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jt512
Apr 22, 2011, 1:28 AM
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ENARE wrote: A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about.
http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/
So, all he has to do is watch a 5-minute video, eh?
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 22, 2011, 1:30 AM)
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theextremist04
Apr 22, 2011, 3:30 AM
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ENARE wrote: A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about. http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/
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justanotherclimber
Apr 22, 2011, 4:40 AM
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theextremist04 wrote: ENARE wrote: A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about. http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/That video wasn't very inspiring...and was the belayer holding the cam on the grigri open?
indeed he was, nice to see a video teaching a dangerous belay technique to new climbers.
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coastal_climber
Apr 22, 2011, 7:15 AM
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Communication is key. Don't be that retard at the crag who has to have a fucking conversation with their partner when they are at the top because they didn't discuss their plans before hand.
Decide on and stick to a set of communications.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2011, 3:18 PM
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Perhaps the most critical aspect of sport climbing is getting down safely. Most serious sport climbing accidents are either lowering off the ends of the rope, botching the anchor setup at the top or misscomunication with the belayer resulting in getting dropped.
certainly not all of the tings that can go wrong but these are the most common.
A few things that will help but not not a substitute for actuall outdoor instruction.
#1 communication with your belayer. Make certain that the belayer knows you intend to lower or rap before leaveing the ground.
#2 If you intend to lower there is NEVER a time that it is acceptable to tell your belayer that you are off belay or clipped in safe as some like to call it. NEVER EVER say off belay untill you are safely back on the ground. Some folks do this when they reach the top and clip in. This is information that your belayer does NOT NEED TO KNOW. Let them stay vigilant and keep you on belay untill you have reached the ground safely. Sequence should go as follows.
#1. leader tells belayer that he/she intends to lower from the top of the climb.
#2 leader leads climb and clips into both top anchors with slings or a PAS style system. i use a Nylon shoulder length runner with locking biner that is girth hitched to my harness and back that up with a second shoulder length sling.
#3. leader asks for SLACK and then threads the anchor PROPERLY.
#4 leader calls TAKE and lets the rope take their weight while inspecting the anchor to make certain that they threadded it correctly.
#4 leader asks GOT ME?
#5 Belayer acknowleges that they do in fact Have YOU. Leader unclips from anchor and indicates LOWER ME.
To keep from getting lowered off the ends of the rope. if the climb looks bigger than the gym have your belayer tie into the other end of the rope.
Don't be afraid to stick clip. It's SPURT climbing. You are supposed to be a pussy ;)
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cfnubbler
Apr 23, 2011, 5:54 PM
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ENARE wrote: A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about. http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/
Perhaps its just me, but were I casting for a climbing safety video, I'd find a competent belayer.
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johnwesely
Apr 23, 2011, 7:53 PM
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justanotherclimber wrote: theextremist04 wrote: ENARE wrote: A video on my blog has a few good tips for staying safe. Most of these tips are applicable to outdoors leading as well. However, if the crux is at the first clip, you can use a stick clip. Otherwise, if you are a competent individual, you should not have to much to worry about. http://breakinginmyshoes.wordpress.com/videos/That video wasn't very inspiring...and was the belayer holding the cam on the grigri open? indeed he was, nice to see a video teaching a dangerous belay technique to new climbers.
Not to mention that it tells the viewer to give their climbers purposefully hard catches on vertical routes.
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Jmus
Apr 24, 2011, 12:16 PM
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i dont have time to go through all the omments so im not sure if anyone has said this but id practice doing a sport belay from a grigri cuz from my experience taking rope out like that sucks and for me i cant do it as fast as anyone can climb and also im guessing youll be using your own rope your getting jsut make sure you take care of it and do record any big falls if you take them so you have a record of how much stress your rope is taking
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