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cervicornis
Apr 23, 2011, 9:16 PM
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I'm concerned that one of my old habits is actually dangerous - let me know what you think.
I scramble up to the top of a route to set up a TR anchor off a couple of existing bolts. If the bolts are close to the edge or I'm feeling uneasy, I will clip into one of the bolts with a 24-48" sling for insurance in the event that I slip while setting up the anchor.
Every situation is different but I can imagine a range of scenarios where a slip would put some amount of shockloading force onto that bolt. Anything from very little to quite a bit, depending.
What do you all do in this situation? I suppose I could clip into both bolts and then adjust to a hanging stance while I set up the anchor, thus eliminating the risk of a shockloading fall.
What do you think of using a dedicated Screamer for use in this situation?
Thanks for your input.
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scottek67
Apr 23, 2011, 9:28 PM
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 1:00 AM
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HAR HAR HAR. I am serious.
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2011, 2:02 AM
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you should be clipped in to an anchor within 2 meter of any place where potential fall could hurt you but no one really does and that is why people die however, you do not want to clip to an anchor with static material cause falling 1 meter on static material could eaisly mess you up.
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shockabuku
Apr 24, 2011, 2:17 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: you should be clipped in to an anchor within 2 meter of any place where potential fall could hurt you but no one really does and that is why people die however, you do not want to clip to an anchor with static material cause falling 1 meter on static material could eaisly mess you up.
What the fuck does that mean? Yes, I've been drinking; so what?
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jbrown2
Apr 24, 2011, 2:31 AM
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In the event of a slip it is unlikely that you will generate enough force to severely shockload the system. I would say you will be injured or tweeked but you most likely will not break your gear.
my sugestion would be learn how to build anchors and build one back from the cliff. you can then extend that anchor to the edge and safely clip in.
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 4:19 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: you should be clipped in to an anchor within 2 meter of any place where potential fall could hurt you but no one really does and that is why people die however, you do not want to clip to an anchor with static material cause falling 1 meter on static material could eaisly mess you up.
Yes, that is my concern and the reason I posted this question.
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 4:33 AM
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jbrown2 wrote: my sugestion would be learn how to build anchors and build one back from the cliff. you can then extend that anchor to the edge and safely clip in.
Sadly, I don't own a rack of gear and since I only TR occasionally, and enjoy doing so from existing bolts, I'd rather find a less expensive (but safe) option.
What do you all think of this plan: Tie into the rope and then place a fig. 8 on a bight about 2-4' away (depending on the circumstances and how much I need to move around). Clip that into one of the bolts and proceed to set up the anchor.
Like you said, it's unlikely that a slip will truly shockload the anchor but using the rope would probably be better than a static sling, and it will also mean one less thing to carry.
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salamanizer
Apr 24, 2011, 6:23 AM
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Good god people. Use one of those Metolius full strength dasies if you're so paranoid or just clip in with a sling or two like everyone else. Why over complicate things.
They didn't have any of this fancy bullshit back in the day and most everyone didn't die. You're over thinking and being paranoid. Use your head, think shit through and you'll be just fine.
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 6:30 AM
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salamanizer wrote: Good god people. Use one of those Metolius full strength dasies if you're so paranoid or just clip in with a sling or two like everyone else. Why over complicate things. They didn't have any of this fancy bullshit back in the day and most everyone didn't die. You're over thinking and being paranoid. Use your head, think shit through and you'll be just fine.
You seem to be missing my point. I'm over thinking this? As if that's a bad thing?
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salamanizer
Apr 24, 2011, 6:53 AM
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I'm not missing shit. Yeah, you're over thinking, and it becomes a bad thing when you start coming up with ridiculous procedures and steps to solve a simple problem. A screamer, seriously? Have you ever seen anyone who knows their head from their ass use a screamer to clip into an anchor while setting up a TR?
Just clip a shoulder length sling girthed to your harness to one of the bolts, use two if it makes you feel better. That's it, that's all you'll ever need to do. Rockclimbing ain't rocket science. You don't need to know fall factors, shockloading calculations, equalization specs or any of that other worthless crap.
All that over thinking just slows you noobs down even more. When I was first learning how to climb, my old crusty mentor only told me to use my head and keep it simple. That's it. When I had a stupid question about something the answer was always the same. You'll figure it out...
Quit over thinking, it'll slow you down, confuse you and get you killed.
(This post was edited by salamanizer on Apr 24, 2011, 7:14 AM)
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 7:16 AM
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I see the merit in the "don't make things more complicated than they need to be" argument.
I still think you're missing the point of my original question. You're just too fucking dumb to realize it.
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 7:23 AM
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Salamander, er salamanizer, why did you edit your original post? Did you suddenly come to the realization that you're not a 90's era rapper from the LBC?
You're a douche.
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salamanizer
Apr 24, 2011, 7:43 AM
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I'm just trying to help your ignorant stupid ass out by answering the moronic question you asked. Obviously my answer was to simple for you and was not what you wanted to hear. You wanted me to tell you some elongated bullshit answer which you could then analyze and discuss as if it were complicated in the least.
I gave you the strait answer and you didn't want to hear it.
It's pretty obvious that you're way to fuckin dense and stupid to figure out basic concepts so my suggestion to you would be to sell your gear, back away from the scary cliffs and take up a sport you can wrap your head around, like WWE you retarded hillbilly fuck.
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dan2see
Apr 24, 2011, 9:26 AM
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cervicornis wrote: I see the merit in the "don't make things more complicated than they need to be" argument. I still think you're missing the point of my original question. You're just too fucking dumb to realize it.
No.
1. Always anchor yourself to something when you're up there.
2. Keep it simple. Just clip into something.
3. Then, if you want to fix it up, add whatever you like. But don't go near the edge, if you're not tied unto something solid.
4. Respect other climbers' experience.
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Jmus
Apr 24, 2011, 12:03 PM
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ya dude its never a bad thing to ask climbing and falls are complex and it takes time to get a full knowledge just remember what ever you are clipping in with needs to be dynamic and able to stretch if you used something like dyneema it wont stretch and could be very bad if you fell to hard on it.. nylon slings are great or using your rope is good.. your not going to be putting to much on the bolt cuz most likly youd be roling over the edge and that would take alot of your forces away from the bolt
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rangerrob
Apr 24, 2011, 12:35 PM
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I understand what Salamanizer is trying to say. You can think something to death and it won't necessarily make you any safer. Coming up with steps and procedures will inevitably not work for your next setup. You have to know how to problem solve on the fly.
However, Salaminzer may be brushing off the question a little too flippantly. One thing no one has mentioned yet is the very real potential of shockloading a spectra sling. Spectra is really strong stuff when it is holding a static load. It is not very strong at all when you shockload it. So if you girthhitch a sling to your harness, lean over the edge to clip a bolt 4 or 5 feet down, then fall onto it, you stand a very real chance of breaking that sling.
Use a regular old nylon sling for this purpose. If you don't know the difference between the two then you need to learn. One way to tell is that spectra is typically white. It doesn't really take dying very well. So a white sling, or a sling with a mix of white and some other color means it is spectra. Don't use these to clip into anchors if there is a chance you will be above the anchor. Use nylon for this purpose.
other than that, yeah Salamanizer is pretty right on the money.
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billl7
Apr 24, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Just remember, it is sometimes best to pass up trying to hang a rope from hard-to-get-to anchors.
That said, I think your rope pig-tail idea is not crazy. But it may feel complicated when it comes time to actually hang the rope that you are tied into - maybe ask someone experienced to walk you through the steps. If the rope came with a middle mark, it's gonna be helpful here.
Metolius PAS or a couple slings: I'd be concerned if the config is you are above the anchor point and at the end of your leash and you are less than very confident about not falling - a fall may be extremely brutal. Even with a rope pig-tail it can be brutal.
About anchoring in to just one bolt: In the past, I've always connected to two anchor points although sometimes how I'm connected isn't equalized. Lately, I've been hearing from some partners that they will occasionally clip into just one bolt, say, on the way down a series of raps (situation depenedent). I'm still into redundancy although some would say I'm overthinking things.
Bill L
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Jmus
Apr 24, 2011, 12:53 PM
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rangerrob wrote: One thing no one has mentioned yet is the very real potential of shockloading a spectra sling. Spectra is really strong stuff when it is holding a static load. It is not very strong at all when you shockload it. So if you girthhitch a sling to your harness, lean over the edge to clip a bolt 4 or 5 feet down, then fall onto it, you stand a very real chance of breaking that sling.
haha i litterally just said that but ya make sure it stretches like nylon
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j_ung
Apr 24, 2011, 1:56 PM
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cervicornis wrote: I'm concerned that one of my old habits is actually dangerous - let me know what you think. I scramble up to the top of a route to set up a TR anchor off a couple of existing bolts. If the bolts are close to the edge or I'm feeling uneasy, I will clip into one of the bolts with a 24-48" sling for insurance in the event that I slip while setting up the anchor. Every situation is different but I can imagine a range of scenarios where a slip would put some amount of shockloading force onto that bolt. Anything from very little to quite a bit, depending. What do you all do in this situation? I suppose I could clip into both bolts and then adjust to a hanging stance while I set up the anchor, thus eliminating the risk of a shockloading fall. What do you think of using a dedicated Screamer for use in this situation? Thanks for your input.
The safest option is to anchor yourself to something else above the bolts, so you hang down below that anchor while working. I use a length of static rope and Gri-gri to rap in to the bolts. I length of any rope and a clove hitch on a biner is good inexpensive alternative.
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dan2see
Apr 24, 2011, 3:32 PM
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cervicornis wrote: I'm concerned that one of my old habits is actually dangerous - let me know what you think. I scramble up to the top of a route to set up a TR anchor off a couple of existing bolts. If the bolts are close to the edge or I'm feeling uneasy, I will clip into one of the bolts with a 24-48" sling for insurance in the event that I slip while setting up the anchor. Every situation is different but I can imagine a range of scenarios where a slip would put some amount of shockloading force onto that bolt. Anything from very little to quite a bit, depending. What do you all do in this situation? I suppose I could clip into both bolts and then adjust to a hanging stance while I set up the anchor, thus eliminating the risk of a shockloading fall. What do you think of using a dedicated Screamer for use in this situation? Thanks for your input.
The OP's scenario is important. He starts off by saying, "I scramble up to the top of a route"
Even before you get to the anchor, you have a safety problem. If the approach to the edge is 4th class (or even easier 3rd class), then the "scramble" itself is a risk. What would happen if you slip while reaching for that anchor? Even if you are sitting on a trail above the rocks, ...
... if a slip puts you over the edge, you must protect yourself even before reaching the anchor. Tie yourself to a boulder, or a tree, or set some pro in a crack in the cliff above you. Do something, anything, to protect yourself.
Use whatever gear you have for the temporary tie-in. You've got a rope (you're setting up the T.R.) so you can actually tie in your harness to one end, before you get to the edge, and clove-hitch to your temporary pro. Use slings, or PAS, or draws, or anything. Stop analyzing and start clipping. Then when your T.R. anchor is complete, you can transfer to that. Even so, do not unclip your first pro until you have completed the anchor and clipped into it.
Never fool around on the top of a cliff, unprotected. Always tie in to something.
---o---o---
Second, you are worried about shock-loading your anchor because your static slings will not absorb the shock.
The answer is not nylon. The correct answer is, "clip to the anchor, then sit in your harness, with all your weight on the gear". I'm not kidding! While you are working on your T.R. arrangement, you are sitting in your harness. Your sling, or PAS, or rope, are supporting your weight, and it is fully extended.
So if you slip from there, your safety is already fully extended, and shock loading is not possible. It can't happen! There is no problem with a static sling. You can even sit on a PAS, if it is fully extended
---o---o---
That's how you can learn to clip-and-go. Other folks call this "alpine efficiency".
And of course it's common sense. But of course, common sense is very uncommon.
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livinonasandbar
Apr 24, 2011, 4:01 PM
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I've been waiting for someone with some sense to weigh in on this. Dan2see is right; Salamander... well, you're just dangerous.
Any fall onto a static-only system can easily snap a carabiner in two, or at least jerk the living shit out of your spine.
If you are at or below the hangars, by all means, tie in with two draws, slings, a PAS, or whatever. And then, keep the slack out of the system.
If you're at the top of a cliff, however, and are reaching down to set an anchor on hangars that are bolted below you, secure yourself first from above. If you instead reach down from above and clip into the hangars with a static sling or PAS as a safety measure, you stand an excellent chance of injury or total failure if you slip and fall onto such a safety system.
People have died from carabiner failure after clipping into a pair of extended quickdraws, climbing a foot or so above the bolt and slipping off. If you risk shock loading the system at all, it needs to be dynamic in nature.
Flame on...
(This post was edited by livinonasandbar on Apr 24, 2011, 9:20 PM)
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majid_sabet
Apr 24, 2011, 5:54 PM
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just use purcell prusic system if you want to minimize shock load and always go for two point of attachment to any anchor system at all times. A lot of people in here show resistance when you bring a decent question and they think their way is the best way but we all know how that goes.
before i knew about purcell prusic
after i saw the drop test resoult
the concept of two point of attachment never got changed. it just got updated to a better and a safer system
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 24, 2011, 5:56 PM)
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cervicornis
Apr 24, 2011, 6:57 PM
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Thanks, some good ideas/suggestions from those who understand my concern. I appreciate it.
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petsfed
Apr 24, 2011, 10:39 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: the concept of two point of attachment never got changed. it just got updated to a better and a safer system
It seems to me that as long as you keep a nylon sling tight, but allow the Purcell to be a little loose, you'll address the shockloading issue. Purcell prusiks get tangled with gear even more easily than your standard cow's tails, so I'd like to minimize the odds that I have to wrestle with my gear when I really need it.
Put another way (and to really address the OP's original question), is there any reason to believe that a person keeping their anchor sling tight will be able to prevent shockloading?
Edit: Unrelated note, did anybody else notice that there's a nylon sling run directly through the purple camalot's wire loop? Sketchy!
(This post was edited by petsfed on Apr 24, 2011, 10:40 PM)
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