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Partner xtrmecat


Apr 25, 2011, 4:21 PM
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Trad climbing, what's in a name?
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Another thread using "Trad" in the title, but more on the lines of gear climbing brought this to mind for me.

Is the term Trad lost now? Have times and ignorance of climbings' past gone so far that the term Trad has lost it meaning? I have been taught that trad means to climb ground up, leave only what must be left to succeed, and if you fall, lower to a stance, pull the rope, and try the pitch again. Yoyo style excepted. Bolts go in on lead, as do anchors, and if natural pro exists, no bolts to be used. It was explained to me to be a much richer form of climbing, and to yield a much more rewarding sense of accomplishment. Not demeaning to any other form of climbing, or style of ascent, but itself a more traditional experience.

Lately, and even in the title of the section of forums this is posted in, it has been called trad to plug gear on a climb. Has the community just not grown from it's roots, but rather from easy and lazier ways. Is the term trad gone, and now means whatever the new guys call it? Kind of like most ghetto slang?

I haven't been mentored by very old cronies, who only climb in this fashion. The opposite is true, the only choss we have here to climb is bolted face, and almost every line within fifty miles is rap bolted. The closest thing I had to a mentor is a guy who fathered nearly 500 lines, and I believe every one put in on rappel. He comes from way back Canadian Trad stock, but no longer lives and breathes the style, so my beliefs aren't based on the beliefs of my mentors.

The guys I climb with now for the most part, lead every thing we climb, and put their routes in on rappel. They have been installing routes for many years, and used to strickly on lead. Now when we second a one pitch line, we pull the rope, and all successive climbers lead it also, with the last one cleaning on rappel.

When a new crag with hundreds of potential lines was found two years ago, I spotted a line that I wanted left alone, and wanted it to go in ground up. Everyone in the community has done so with the exception of another trad climber, and he put in pitch one on lead, claiming the top to be too hard to go on lead. This ethic or practice is Traditional climbing by our definition. Simply climbing a line that requires gear is something entirely different.

Have the roots of our sport been lost entirely? Has the slang of the ignorant and fast learning gym rats taken away the true meaning of key terms? Do people still seek a rich experience for themselves, or just a good workout offered by an ascent by any methods they need to get to the top?

My belief is I climb to challenge me. No comparison to others accomplishments, but rather I seek to find my ability and maximum potential. The richer rewarding feeling of doing my best, and I do feel different of an experience done in better style, rather than a top rope ride. No doubt about it.

This is posted not to start a flame fest, or intended to insult anyone. Hopefully someone else can weigh in with their experiences and thoughts, such as "terms change with time", or "safety preceeds style" or any other mature opinions. Hopefully productive discussion, and feel free to point out other terms that may have evolved due to whatever.

Burly Bob


notapplicable


Apr 25, 2011, 5:28 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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Nothing about the term "trad" precludes bailing from the route. People have been doing so since the very beginning of climbing. And while yes, the term "trad" is used to describe climbing that would be much more aptly described as sprad, the genesis of this thread is groundless. You are taking issue where there is none. Sorry you typed all that for nothing.

Also, you posted this...

In reply to:
Fast Eddie, I think the most important thing you should know, that you are not trad climbing. That would be to walk up to something and climb it without falling, resting on your gear, or retreat.

followed by...

In reply to:
Yoyo style has been accepted. Bolts are even accepted on some trad, but placed on lead.

Which are completely contradictory ideas.

Trad implies working a route groundup and onsight but it does not mean that as soon as you fall or bail that you are no longer climbing in traditional style.


rtwilli4


Apr 25, 2011, 5:40 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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I agree with most everything you've said. I love placing gear, but reading about an 80 foot line in a guidebook, climbing to a bolted anchor and lowering off is far from "traditional." There are many names for this type of climbing. Trad, Sprad, Gear climbing, cragging, etc.

I think that the term "trad" is used way to often these days, and I even find myself explaining to people that "trad" is not a verb. Perhaps one of my biggest pet peeves at the crag is someone saying "yea, my friend said he was going to teach me how to trad" or "I tradded this route last year and it was so scary."

Call it what you want, but don't let the new generation bother you or take away from your experience. Some of us (I'm 27) do get it, and understand that while placing gear instead of clipping bolts is a step closer to the "traditional" style that we all revere, it is not the same thing as going ground up, no matter how big or small the route may be.

One could look at is this way:

Rap bolting IS "trad" at a lot of places in the world where climbing simply would not exist without that technique. And without sport climbing, head pointing, cleaning and inspecting gear routes on rappel, climbing would not be where it is today.

Look at the late Micah Dash for a perfect example. He was all about ground up ascents in a minimalist style in remote areas. He had an upmost respect for the traditional style of climbing and what it meant to adhere to a certain ethic. But in order to get himself ready for such adventures in the mountains, he could often be found sport climbing! He saw it as the best way to build the power and strength that he wanted to take to the big mountains.

There are many kinds of climbing now for people to enjoy. Some people will never get higher than 30 feet off the ground... and that's OK. To me, that's just training for bigger stuff, but to others that's "climbing." I guess it doesn't matter as long as we're all having fun.

No matter how dense some climbers may be, in the back of their minds somewhere, they know that what they are doing is not even close to what some of the pioneers of climbing have done. Anyone that doesn't understand that just isn't a climber.


johnwesely


Apr 25, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
Lately, and even in the title of the section of forums this is posted in, it has been called trad to plug gear on a climb. Has the community just not grown from it's roots, but rather from easy and lazier ways. Is the term trad gone, and now means whatever the new guys call it? Kind of like most ghetto slang?

Trad, the newest of the ghetto slang. Sit tight for Tupac's newest posthumous release "Don't trad in my way or I will sport clip you up."


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Apr 25, 2011, 6:12 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
Have the roots of our sport been lost entirely?

Maybe only to you. Back in the day, old cronies who did not mentor you might stand on each others shoulders or lasso a horn and climb the rope to get to the top of a climb. Some of the most famous climbers used bolts excessively at times. What you think of as "trad" is no more accurate than the definitions known to those who you condemn.

The roots of climbing? How about excessive bolting, nailing, standing on shoulders, etc..., as the roots of climbing? The history of rock climbing did not come from the Y.V. in the seventies where clean climbing was the norm. That was a significant part of the history but there's a lot more to it than that and a lot more, and sometimes a lot less, to "trad" climbing than the set of rules that you have set forth.

You don't seem much different from all of the others that comes to the internet to argue that your own form of climbing, or in this case the form that you support as valid, is the only valid form of climbing, and that climbing history shows that you are correct. Maybe it's time to look at all of climbing history, enjoy climbing, and stop with the bashing of those who don't fit in your narrow view of things.

Dave


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Apr 25, 2011, 7:38 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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Trad means ground up placing "traditional" gear, with maybe the occasional bolt hand drilled on lead. Anything else is NOT Trad, especially rap-bolting.


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Apr 25, 2011, 8:03 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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You are very confused.

Not even sure where to start.

GO


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 25, 2011, 8:22 PM
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Re: [drector] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
Have the roots of our sport been lost entirely?

Maybe only to you. Back in the day, old cronies who did not mentor you might stand on each others shoulders or lasso a horn and climb the rope to get to the top of a climb. Some of the most famous climbers used bolts excessively at times. What you think of as "trad" is no more accurate than the definitions known to those who you condemn.

The roots of climbing? How about excessive bolting, nailing, standing on shoulders, etc..., as the roots of climbing? The history of rock climbing did not come from the Y.V. in the seventies where clean climbing was the norm. That was a significant part of the history but there's a lot more to it than that and a lot more, and sometimes a lot less, to "trad" climbing than the set of rules that you have set forth.

You don't seem much different from all of the others that comes to the internet to argue that your own form of climbing, or in this case the form that you support as valid, is the only valid form of climbing, and that climbing history shows that you are correct. Maybe it's time to look at all of climbing history, enjoy climbing, and stop with the bashing of those who don't fit in your narrow view of things.

Dave
Dave, no disrespect intended to anyone or any other form of climbing. I wonder if you even read my post and the contents clearly stated intention. I fail to follow your views that anyone or any style got bashed. I just see a term used so freely in the wrong way, and pondered if trad style was enjoyed by others any longer. That is all. I do enjoy playing the sport monkey game of getting on something way over my ability on top rope and thrashing my fore arms into total butterdom. We did just that to conclude our day of cragging on saturday. We took a guide book up in the car, but it never got opened, not because we are badass, but the interest just wasn't in it.

JohnWesley, you still crack me up.

Burly Bob


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Apr 25, 2011, 8:40 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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only the ethics police really care ...

the rest of us just climb ... and plug in gear or clip bolts as we go


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Apr 25, 2011, 8:50 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
drector wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
Have the roots of our sport been lost entirely?

Maybe only to you. Back in the day, old cronies who did not mentor you might stand on each others shoulders or lasso a horn and climb the rope to get to the top of a climb. Some of the most famous climbers used bolts excessively at times. What you think of as "trad" is no more accurate than the definitions known to those who you condemn.

The roots of climbing? How about excessive bolting, nailing, standing on shoulders, etc..., as the roots of climbing? The history of rock climbing did not come from the Y.V. in the seventies where clean climbing was the norm. That was a significant part of the history but there's a lot more to it than that and a lot more, and sometimes a lot less, to "trad" climbing than the set of rules that you have set forth.

You don't seem much different from all of the others that comes to the internet to argue that your own form of climbing, or in this case the form that you support as valid, is the only valid form of climbing, and that climbing history shows that you are correct. Maybe it's time to look at all of climbing history, enjoy climbing, and stop with the bashing of those who don't fit in your narrow view of things.

Dave
Dave, no disrespect intended to anyone or any other form of climbing. I wonder if you even read my post and the contents clearly stated intention. I fail to follow your views that anyone or any style got bashed. I just see a term used so freely in the wrong way, and pondered if trad style was enjoyed by others any longer. That is all. I do enjoy playing the sport monkey game of getting on something way over my ability on top rope and thrashing my fore arms into total butterdom. We did just that to conclude our day of cragging on saturday. We took a guide book up in the car, but it never got opened, not because we are badass, but the interest just wasn't in it.

JohnWesley, you still crack me up.

Burly Bob

"Trad" seems to be slang for "traditional" but seems to be limited in ethical scope to traditional climbing activities that are still considered ethical, or in good style, by modern standards. Standing on a partners shoulders to get further on a climb is no longer good style but it could be considered "trad" but usually "trad" does seem to take on a more modern meaning and lassoing a horn and batmanning up a rope isn't "trad" climbing to most people.

There doesn't seem to be a way to get a consensus or even an average meaning for it. "Trad" is whatever a person wants it to be within a large grey area of meaning.

Yes, sport climbing is not quite "trad." Pre-placing gear is not really trad either. Hang-dogging after placing gear on lead, who knows. I have no idea what "trad" really means to the people who are using the word contrary to your meaning but I do know that saying they are wrong about the definition of some slang that is not in a dictionary is ever so slightly arrogant.

Kudos on not using the guide book and trying to be "trad" whenever possible. I can certainly respect that adventurous style.

Dave


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Apr 25, 2011, 11:03 PM
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Re: [drector] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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  Dave, I was hoping the thread would evolve into the points you wrote, and even more. Let me pose these thoughts now.

Is the loss of older ways of doing things at the expense of adventure? Or another way of asking, if someone learns to climb in a gym, and sport cragging is their upbringing, can they really get as much out of the experience of climbing? Guidebooks, sticky rubber, tape gloves are all cheating by someones' standards. But climbing a route of previously unknown grade, just because it appeals to you just seems to be a more worthwile venture to me. Not saying working a route isn't a satisfying experience, especially on the send.

Using an old term to mean new things is the evolution of our entire language, from the start. Making it to mean something different out of not understanding it's meaning is surely to be resisted by those who would resist almost any change. It has evolved into a verb, as stated upthread. Is this the end of an ethic, or more probably a style? Will the adventure go out of most climbing in the days of a not to distant future? That is my pondering.

The disclaimer, I have worked a problem. I do have projects and goals that will need to be worked out, first on top rope, then on lead. I do use many other styles regularly. I do notice the feeling difference at the end of the day also. I never intended to come off as righteous or pompous.

This started wheeling around in my head after a relatively new gear leader posed a question of retreat from an unfinished pitch. Without having any idea how it used to be done, or how it is generally done today, are all his skills going to be gleaned from the internet? Is this the end of the era of mentoring newer climbers? I brought up the terminology issue, only to enlighten him, well I guess it was to ruffle a feather or two also.

I was hoping a couple of the trad daddies who frequent the forums would weigh in. The golden poster and an Oregon climber come to mind, I doubt the climber with mucho wisdom I am thinking of cruises these forums much any more.

Burly Bob


notapplicable


Apr 26, 2011, 4:19 AM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
This started wheeling around in my head after a relatively new gear leader posed a question of retreat from an unfinished pitch. Without having any idea how it used to be done, or how it is generally done today, are all his skills going to be gleaned from the internet? Is this the end of the era of mentoring newer climbers? I brought up the terminology issue, only to enlighten him, well I guess it was to ruffle a feather or two also.

Well, if your goal was to ruffle some feathers then you have been successful because you're pissing me off. You have completely failed to produce anything resembling a consistent, logical and accountable definition of what YOU think trad means put persist in posting these halfbaked walls of text.

You posted in the "bailout" thread intending to thump your chest and put an inexperienced climber in his place but only succeeded in making yourself look like an ass.


uni_jim


Apr 26, 2011, 6:48 AM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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Dude, Climbing isn't even the same game as it was back in the day. Put on your hobnail boots, hitch up your knickers and go solo some chimney. Then you might be trad. But wait! Isn't rock climbing just training for the harder routes in the alps?

Get over it. Modern climbing doesn't have shit to do with being "trad." Rock climbers choose routes with varying levels of adventure, where they will be clipping fixed gear or placing their own. Whatever style they climb the thing in is accepted somewhere, so don't worry if I'm a rap-boltin-hang-doggin-stick-clippin sport weenie who calls cracks trad climbs; you're just jealous of my toque and how easily I cruised your scary trad route!

The term is meaningless, and so is bitching about it.


Might as well have another hexcentric debate. I'll start: Only noobs use hexes, everyone else gets away with a marginal cam behind that flake!


healyje


Apr 26, 2011, 7:40 AM
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Re: [drector] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
Hang-dogging after placing gear on lead, who knows.

I do. The original primary distinction between climbing (now known as 'trad climbing') and sport climbing - and the principal ethical rift between the two - was and is dogging, not the bolts. While the rap bolting and previewing/cleaning were definitely viewed as cheesy and weak, the real contention was always over the dogging as a tactic.

And dogging on gear today is pretty much the definition of 'sprad climbing' - crossing over to 'trad climbing' - using gear, but still retaining sport tactics. If you're dogging your way up a line on gear you are definitely not trad climbing.


rtwilli4


Apr 26, 2011, 9:52 AM
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Re: [healyje] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
drector wrote:
Hang-dogging after placing gear on lead, who knows.

I do. The original primary distinction between climbing (now known as 'trad climbing') and sport climbing - and the principal ethical rift between the two - was and is dogging, not the bolts. While the rap bolting and previewing/cleaning were definitely viewed as cheesy and weak, the real contention was always over the dogging as a tactic.

And dogging on gear today is pretty much the definition of 'sprad climbing' - crossing over to 'trad climbing' - using gear, but still retaining sport tactics. If you're dogging your way up a line on gear you are definitely not trad climbing.

+1. Well said.


lofstromc


Apr 26, 2011, 10:38 AM
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Re: [healyje] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
drector wrote:
Hang-dogging after placing gear on lead, who knows.

I do. The original primary distinction between climbing (now known as 'trad climbing') and sport climbing - and the principal ethical rift between the two - was and is dogging, not the bolts. While the rap bolting and previewing/cleaning were definitely viewed as cheesy and weak, the real contention was always over the dogging as a tactic.

And dogging on gear today is pretty much the definition of 'sprad climbing' - crossing over to 'trad climbing' - using gear, but still retaining sport tactics. If you're dogging your way up a line on gear you are definitely not trad climbing.
John Bachar would be proud


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Apr 26, 2011, 1:09 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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I wish the word "trad" would go away forever.


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Apr 26, 2011, 1:13 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
Have times and ignorance of climbings' past gone so far that the term Trad has lost it meaning?

Ignorance of climbing's past?! The word didn't even exist 25 years ago.


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Apr 26, 2011, 2:04 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
This started wheeling around in my head after a relatively new gear leader posed a question of retreat from an unfinished pitch. Without having any idea how it used to be done, or how it is generally done today, are all his skills going to be gleaned from the internet? Is this the end of the era of mentoring newer climbers? I brought up the terminology issue, only to enlighten him, well I guess it was to ruffle a feather or two also.

Well, if your goal was to ruffle some feathers then you have been successful because you're pissing me off. You have completely failed to produce anything resembling a consistent, logical and accountable definition of what YOU think trad means put persist in posting these halfbaked walls of text.

You posted in the "bailout" thread intending to thump your chest and put an inexperienced climber in his place but only succeeded in making yourself look like an ass.


Intended to thump my chest? Man can you read stuff into things. Where the hell did I say anything even remotely like chest beating? This is another thread, right? I am wondering if you are wrapped a little to tight for the internet. My intentions are clear, and stated several times. No one made you click on this.

Burly Bob


The post in the bailout thread was to set a couple of advice givers, and more importantly the OP er on the more correct path. The term Trad was being used completely out of it's general meaning. Hence this article. The ruffle feathers comment was my honesty coming out. I would rather cop to all of my deeds than try to sweep sly shit under the rug, just my style. I knew full well that many of the egos of the advice givers would take it poorly, but that is what they get, giving advice and using whatever suits them to get their point across. Ruffle feathers, kicking them in the groin, two different things, two entirely seperate reactions. Your reaction strikes me as the latter.

If that is what you see as chest thumping, I apologize, here in public, the same place I may have insulted you. I thought my question marks and careful wording in the posts above made the attitude clear, and was seeking others thoughts and inputs, not a testosterone filled fight of who is the grandest.

I also admitted my mentoring was of other standards, by people I believed knew other styles and used to practice them, but no longer do. I don't recall ever saying I KNEW exactly any history of TRAD or that my way was it. I was really looking for wisdom into this topic by those I consider much more enlightened in such matters, Jheally, Rgold, and many others post some quality stuff, and as far as I can tell add quite a bit to forums such as this. That is all.

If this still pisses you off, oh well. I was only looking for enlightenment myself, and obviously need to work on communication skills, as some may need to work on reading comprehension. May I suggest thicker skin when communicating with total strangers?

Bob Lindsley
Not hiding in any way


(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Apr 26, 2011, 2:50 PM)


csproul


Apr 26, 2011, 3:19 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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This is what you said in the other thread about trad climbing:

xtrmecat wrote:
...That would be to walk up to something and climb it without falling, resting on your gear, or retreat....

First point: I agree that was probably an inappropriate place to post your opinions on whether the OP is "trad" climbing or not. It was fairly irrelevant to his question, as she/he was just trying to figure out the best way to bail from a route mid-pitch.

Second point: Traditional climbing has most certainly included falling, retreating, and aiding (not exactly "resting on gear", but a similar idea). The idea that if you blow an onsight, you are no longer traditional climbing is ridiculous. As healyje pointed out, the primary distinction (in addition to placing protection on lead, ground-up) was in the practice of dogging and/or rehearsing a route. Of course climbers originally fell off of or retreated from routes. The distinction was that a "traditional" climber would lower back to the ground or belay stance, clean the gear and start over again, placing protection on lead from the start. Sport climbing tactics would include working the moves, hanging on protection, and pre-placing protection for an eventual red-point attempt. Also, don't forget that many of the earliest climbers used aid and/or headpointing tactics (think Gritstone) long before there was the modern distinction between traditional and sport climbing.

I did notice that your definition changed slightly from that post to this one, and I'd say that you are much closer to my understanding of traditional climbing with this post.


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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The post in the bailout thread was to set a couple of advice givers, and more importantly the OP er on the more correct path.

"The correct path"? Dude, even you admit that your mentors are sport climbers, the people you climb with are sport climbers, and you mostly climb sport. This should be a clue to you that now you're in a bigger world here online, with more trad climbers, you should listen more and spew less. And yet you're convinced that everyone else is wrong, and you somehow have the "true" meaning of trad.

You're completely off base, and the sooner you realize it, the better.

Here's a lifeline - some definitions:

Trad route
----------------
A route in which the FA party (or FFA if it was already an aid line) climbed it from bottom to top, placing any new fixed gear (which may include bolts) en-route. It may follow an existing aid line, which may already have fixed gear on it. The most important issue is to take the route as you find it, to find your way using what the rock allows, placing fixed gear as a last resort. The FA party does their best to rise to the challenge of what the rock allows. Very little consideration is placed on making the route more "safe" for those who come later. It is expected that any later ascent parties will have the opportunity to measure themselves against the same yardstick (the rock and what it allows as you climb from the bottom to the top) as the FA party did. The FFA goes to the first party who leads every pitch clean (no hanging on gear save at belays).

Please note that the route is a trad route simply based on the style (described above) in which the FA party climbed it. Every other party can do it in better or worse style, that's irrelevant. It's still a trad route.

Trad lead
------------
To attempt to lead a trad route (see above) in the best style you can. The best style is to lead it cleanly cleanly onsight, but once you blow the onsight, that doesn't mean you can no longer trad climb the line! It is considered a valid clean ascent to send it after multiple tries. Now as for what you do on those tries, that can factor in. As Jay said, hangdogging (working moves from a hang) is considered poorer style by some.

But plenty of heralded trad ascents involve hangdogging (or even toproping for single pitch routes) to work the moves before the redpoint. One recent example is the third free ascent of Southern Belle. I don't know anyone who says the ascent is tainted because they worked the first five pitches before firing the whole thing in a day.

Where I think the OP is most confused is that he doesn't realize the following: Just because you don't do something in the best possible style does not mean you are not trad climbing. Simply to try to ascend a trad route in the best style you can whether you succeed or fail, means you are trad climbing. Of course, you cannot claim to have "sent" the route until you lead it, no falls.

Oh, and there's nothing un-trad about knowing your limits, and recognizing when the option to retreat is the best one, and to continue up a climb would be foolhardy. Go read the posts by RGold (one of the more staunch traditionalists here) to see his opinion about the summit or plummet philosophy. I'll give you a hint - he says it's bred of sport climbing.

GO


notapplicable


Apr 26, 2011, 7:32 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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xtrmecat wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
This started wheeling around in my head after a relatively new gear leader posed a question of retreat from an unfinished pitch. Without having any idea how it used to be done, or how it is generally done today, are all his skills going to be gleaned from the internet? Is this the end of the era of mentoring newer climbers? I brought up the terminology issue, only to enlighten him, well I guess it was to ruffle a feather or two also.

Well, if your goal was to ruffle some feathers then you have been successful because you're pissing me off. You have completely failed to produce anything resembling a consistent, logical and accountable definition of what YOU think trad means put persist in posting these halfbaked walls of text.

You posted in the "bailout" thread intending to thump your chest and put an inexperienced climber in his place but only succeeded in making yourself look like an ass.


Intended to thump my chest? Man can you read stuff into things. Where the hell did I say anything even remotely like chest beating? This is another thread, right? I am wondering if you are wrapped a little to tight for the internet. My intentions are clear, and stated several times. No one made you click on this.

Alright, I'll play that game. Here is your post in it's entirety from the "bailout" thread...

In reply to:
Fast Eddie, I think the most important thing you should know, that you are not trad climbing. That would be to walk up to something and climb it without falling, resting on your gear, or retreat. Yoyo style has been accepted. Bolts are even accepted on some trad, but placed on lead.

Learning to climb on gear isn't trad, it is learning to climb on gear. Whole different topic. Your question about climbing on gear has been asked and answered. Calling gear leads trad in this instance, is ignorance of climbing altogether. Many here see it as synonymous, it is not.

Burly Bob

It had nothing to do with the topic at hand and you called the OP out for not climbing in a traditional style and of being ignorant of what it means. Which of course is completely wrong because the style of ascent was never under discussion, only the mode of descent. Your post absolutely had a condescending tone, which might be forgivable if what you had to say was correct or even relevant, unfortunately it was not.

Now, for your part, please quote for me the posts from the "bailout" thread that made it so evident the OP does infact not climb trad. I'll take quotes from both the OP and those giving him/her advice on how to safely get down from a route that could not be finished, seeing as how you have clearly stated here that it was both the OP and the respondents who revealed themselves to be ignorant of the origins and nature of trad climbing.



In reply to:
The post in the bailout thread was to set a couple of advice givers, and more importantly the OP er on the more correct path. The term Trad was being used completely out of it's general meaning.

Please show me what you consider to be the grounds for this assertion. I am genuinely curious because I don't think you have any. Direct quotes please.

Oh and if all you have are a few suggestions that the OP could aid past the difficult part to facilitate getting off the route in a safe and timely fashion, don't bother. Again, the topic was bailing from the route. The ascent is over at that point.


johnwesely


Apr 26, 2011, 7:55 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Oh, and there's nothing un-trad about knowing your limits, and recognizing when the option to retreat is the best one, and to continue up a climb would be foolhardy. Go read the posts by RGold (one of the more staunch traditionalists here) to see his opinion about the summit or plummet philosophy. I'll give you a hint - he says it's bred of sport climbing.

GO

Do you have a link to the thread? I did a search, but you know how that goes on this site.


notapplicable


Apr 26, 2011, 8:06 PM
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Re: [xtrmecat] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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First you say this...

xtrmecat wrote:
The post in the bailout thread was to set a couple of advice givers, and more importantly the OP er on the more correct path. The term Trad was being used completely out of it's general meaning.

Then you say this...

xtrmecat wrote:
I don't recall ever saying I KNEW exactly any history of TRAD or that my way was it. I was really looking for wisdom into this topic by those I consider much more enlightened in such matters...

If this still pisses you off, oh well. I was only looking for enlightenment myself

I would like to see you reconcile these two statements? That would be a neat trick.


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 26, 2011, 8:22 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Trad climbing, what's in a name? [In reply to]
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I have nothing to take back. You however may need to get thicker skin there. It isn't personal. And no, I am not a mostly sporto. Judging someone from a couple of posts on the internet seems a little less worldly than you present yourself. I am mostly trad or aid. It just so happens that the local crags here offer little of it. I just travel a lot. Your issue seems to be within yourself, let it go dude.

This thread was to talk of trad, not give you a place to crank at anyone who will feed you. Bye.

Burly Bob

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