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enigma
May 19, 2011, 11:54 PM
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Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies 
If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you !
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Kartessa
May 20, 2011, 3:29 AM
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enigma wrote: Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you !
Yeah, we're practically neibours...
... and you're practically retarded.
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enigma
May 20, 2011, 5:59 AM
Post #28 of 51
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Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you ! Yeah, we're practically neibours... ... and you're practically retarded.
Now I understand why you have a problem finding locals in Ontario to climb with you!
Not to mention a warm welcome to newcomers from rockclimbing.com, try to be NICE.
(This post was edited by enigma on May 20, 2011, 6:16 AM)
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sungam
May 20, 2011, 12:07 PM
Post #29 of 51
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Fucking excellent to see you posting again.
One little amendment to the earlier warning about youtube videos is Climbing Tools. Not only is this dude pretty darn smart, he makes a pretty damn funny video that gets the point across.
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ubu
May 20, 2011, 12:55 PM
Post #30 of 51
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Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you ! Yeah, we're practically neibours... ... and you're practically retarded.
Practically?
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Kartessa
May 20, 2011, 1:12 PM
Post #31 of 51
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ubu wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you ! Yeah, we're practically neibours... ... and you're practically retarded. Practically?
I was being nice
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ChalkIsCheap
May 20, 2011, 4:21 PM
Post #32 of 51
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Kartessa wrote: ChalkIsCheap wrote: Leaving gear behind is one thing. Something far worse would be attempting to clean a route and accidentally dropping your rope because you didn't tie it off before threading. It happens all the time. If nobody else is there and it's just the two of you then what are your options? What are you trying to say? 
The guys that were climbing at the bridge were taking turns on pillar 4 hanging one draw each before switching leads. When they got to the anchors they lowered down and then were trying to figure out how to get their draws back. Some of the anchors there are so small you can't get a bite of rope through so you are forced to untie to thread them...
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wmfork
May 20, 2011, 5:26 PM
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erisspirit wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: jacques wrote: As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad... Whaaaa--??? I'm still trying to work this part out: |
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enigma
May 20, 2011, 6:31 PM
Post #34 of 51
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Kartessa wrote: ubu wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: Kartessa wrote: Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again. But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies If you were pleasant , she might be a partner for you ! Yeah, we're practically neibours... ... and you're practically retarded. Practically? I was being nice
Go on facespace !
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jacques
May 20, 2011, 7:43 PM
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wmfork wrote: I don't know what Jacques meant, but feeding and taking up slack is typically more involved in sport climbing. You'll need to anticipate feeding when the leader is clipping in sport climbing a lot more often, because the leader can clip while going for the next move, or in general not be in a good stance when clipping (and often involving a more violent rope pull), whereas in trad, the leader has to place a piece (and typically in a more restful stance) before clipping the rope, giving you fair a bit of heads up. Also, you may need to learn taking up slack while the leader is boinking on the rope, something that nobody really wants to do on removable gear.
You said that it is less complex in sport or it is more complex in sport? It is different for sure.
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jt512
May 20, 2011, 8:11 PM
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jacques wrote: tequilaboom wrote: We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone! As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad, I suggest that you begin with trad on easier route to master your technique. For belaying and rap: I suggest that you take a course, two of you, with a guide. Ask him to show you the major danger in rock climbing (ex, traverse, rappeling on nuts belay, pendulum. As they are expert, they will protect you against any danger. After, take a course of aid climbing. Placing a good nuts on the ground is easy, Loading an rp's or rock number 2 on lead is feasible, but... Aid climbing will help you to see many feature in the rock and the limit of your cam, stopper. In many cliff, they still have some climber that have a couple of climbing in their muscle. But, because they lost there shape, they don't want to lead. Don't choose the one who talk about what to do or not. Choose an instinctive climber. One who will not say a lot about technique, but that he will look at you with a smile and climb the hard section you have led effortless. With all that knowledge, you will be able to safely climb a route. As you will eventually place a runner on a bolt, you will find easier to climb on bolt. Finding and trusting a stopper is mostly trad climbing. In sport, the fear to fall in a bad position will become evident and as you will sport climb, you will need special and complex technique for belaying.
You start with the dubious premise that sport belaying is more complex than trad belaying, and based on that, you conclude that he should learn to lead both trad and aid before sport, which doesn't even follow from the dubious premise.
Jay
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sticky_fingers
May 20, 2011, 9:22 PM
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wmfork wrote: erisspirit wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: jacques wrote: As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad... Whaaaa--??? I'm still trying to work this part out: I don't know what Jacques meant, but feeding and taking up slack is typically more involved in sport climbing. You'll need to anticipate feeding when the leader is clipping in sport climbing a lot more often, because the leader can clip while going for the next move, or in general not be in a good stance when clipping (and often involving a more violent rope pull), whereas in trad, the leader has to place a piece (and typically in a more restful stance) before clipping the rope, giving you fair a bit of heads up. Also, you may need to learn taking up slack while the leader is boinking on the rope, something that nobody really wants to do on removable gear.
Still wrong. Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. IF the belayer wasn't paying attention, the belayer should still be able to tell the difference if the leader is reaching for rock or the rope. If the belayer STILL isn't paying attention, the leader can yell "clipping".
The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. The job of pulling up slack (boinking) is no different for the belayer no matter the route; it's the climber's decision to boink or not.
but i digress....
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mikebarter387
May 21, 2011, 3:13 AM
Post #38 of 51
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jt512 wrote: jacques wrote: tequilaboom wrote: We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone! As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad, I suggest that you begin with trad on easier route to master your technique. For belaying and rap: I suggest that you take a course, two of you, with a guide. Ask him to show you the major danger in rock climbing (ex, traverse, rappeling on nuts belay, pendulum. As they are expert, they will protect you against any danger. After, take a course of aid climbing. Placing a good nuts on the ground is easy, Loading an rp's or rock number 2 on lead is feasible, but... Aid climbing will help you to see many feature in the rock and the limit of your cam, stopper. In many cliff, they still have some climber that have a couple of climbing in their muscle. But, because they lost there shape, they don't want to lead. Don't choose the one who talk about what to do or not. Choose an instinctive climber. One who will not say a lot about technique, but that he will look at you with a smile and climb the hard section you have led effortless. With all that knowledge, you will be able to safely climb a route. As you will eventually place a runner on a bolt, you will find easier to climb on bolt. Finding and trusting a stopper is mostly trad climbing. In sport, the fear to fall in a bad position will become evident and as you will sport climb, you will need special and complex technique for belaying. You start with the dubious premise that sport belaying is more complex than trad belaying, and based on that, you conclude that he should learn to lead both trad and aid before sport, which doesn't even follow from the dubious premise. Jay
I'm with jt512 on this. I have never heard of anybody taking such a ass backward approach to lead climbing. Would be interesting to place a control subject that learns the way the rest of us do then compare the test subject a year or two later.
I would suggest disregarding "jacques" iot really is not a good approach and shows a lack of real world experience. Certianly lead climbing has inherent risks but a little fear and common sense negates a lot of those.
A day course in lead climbing from a guide is perhaps a good investment for something that you are going to be doing for awhile. Any guide worth his salt can handle 4 clients for something like this. Shouldn't cost you more then $100 apiece. You don't need a full guide as a rock instructor is much more likely to be current and taught a lot more of these type of courses recently.
What a nanny state we have created.
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jacques
May 21, 2011, 3:22 AM
Post #39 of 51
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sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear.
I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport.
an other distinction?
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jjones16
May 21, 2011, 3:41 AM
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Good points. Nice muscles. I would listen to you.
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jacques
May 21, 2011, 5:51 PM
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mikebarter387 wrote: I would suggest disregarding "jacques" iot really is not a good approach and shows a lack of real world experience.
The climber in the early learn like I describe because the leader want to have a good belayer to climb. In the middle years, 1960 to1975, they learn the way I describe and real hard climb was open with a ground up ethic. Today, the way that the expansion of climbing was done is not good anymore...sport climber miracle?
It is hard to test which medthod is better because you have so many factor that can be influence the result. first of all, the people must be unaware of the goal of the test. For sport climbing, your method is really adapted. But I saw many problem in trad climbing with your method. and I am not alone to say that.
why can we have two official way to learn to lead and let the people choose the one they want.
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erisspirit
May 23, 2011, 6:22 PM
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jacques wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport. an other distinction?
Ummm I didn't say any of that... The only thing I said in this thread is I couldn't figure out what you were saying in the sentence I quoted.
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enigma
May 23, 2011, 10:22 PM
Post #43 of 51
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erisspirit wrote: jacques wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport. an other distinction? Ummm I didn't say any of that... The only thing I said in this thread is I couldn't figure out what you were saying in the sentence I quoted.
Maybe he is trying to write in English from French? Its a hard transition from one language to another, give him a break!
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erisspirit
May 23, 2011, 11:20 PM
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enigma wrote: erisspirit wrote: jacques wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport. an other distinction? Ummm I didn't say any of that... The only thing I said in this thread is I couldn't figure out what you were saying in the sentence I quoted. Maybe he is trying to write in English from French? Its a hard transition from one language to another, give him a break!
I'm sure he is translating. That doesn't change however the fact that I never made a comment about trad rest positions, and I was just clarifying that point.
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Rora
May 23, 2011, 11:31 PM
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take a class or lesson, dont just use youtube or pictures or whatever. ;) leading can be really dangerous. When i first tried to lead belay i was just watching my coach then she told me to do it. I tied in to the complete wrong end of the rope and had tons and tons of slack out. My climber would have died if she didn't have a toprope too. Then my coach got really pissed at me but no one had ever explained it to me or anything!!
but my point is that its hard to "pick up on stuff" or whatever and it REALLY helps to have someone coaching you and telling you where to stand and how much slack and what not.
this is coming from someone who hasnt really been leading all that long (2 months) and is still being coached and stuff. even though thats also cuz im younger.
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special_blend
May 23, 2011, 11:52 PM
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Rora wrote: take a class or lesson, dont just use youtube or pictures or whatever. ;) leading can be really dangerous. When i first tried to lead belay i was just watching my coach then she told me to do it. I tied in to the complete wrong end of the rope and had tons and tons of slack out. My climber would have died if she didn't have a toprope too. Then my coach got really pissed at me but no one had ever explained it to me or anything!! but my point is that its hard to "pick up on stuff" or whatever and it REALLY helps to have someone coaching you and telling you where to stand and how much slack and what not. this is coming from someone who hasnt really been leading all that long (2 months) and is still being coached and stuff. even though thats also cuz im younger.
+1
I thought that buying and reading a few books and working things out for myself before doing actual lead was good enough. Taking an intro to lead course at my gym not only showed me how fucking dumb of an idea that truly was but it was an incredibly humbling experience that showed me I've got a long way to go and it's going to take time to make these skills second nature. You'll quickly realize just how dangerous errors and mistakes can be even if sport climbing and gym climbing are on the shallow end of the pool for climbing.
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jacques
May 23, 2011, 11:58 PM
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wmfork wrote: erisspirit wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: jacques wrote: As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad... Whaaaa--??? I'm still trying to work this part out: I don't know what Jacques meant, but feeding and taking up slack is typically more involved in sport climbing. You'll need to anticipate feeding when the leader is clipping in sport climbing a lot more often, because the leader can clip while going for the next move, or in general not be in a good stance when clipping (and often involving a more violent rope pull), whereas in trad, the leader has to place a piece (and typically in a more restful stance) before clipping the rope, giving you fair a bit of heads up. Also, you may need to learn taking up slack while the leader is boinking on the rope, something that nobody really wants to do on removable gear.
Sorry, it is not errisspirit who wrote the think about trad, but it is wmfork answering to errisspirit.
I made a mistake because I red it as a continuation of his reflexion.
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wmfork
May 25, 2011, 9:28 PM
Post #48 of 51
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special_blend wrote: Rora wrote: take a class or lesson, dont just use youtube or pictures or whatever. ;) leading can be really dangerous. When i first tried to lead belay i was just watching my coach then she told me to do it. I tied in to the complete wrong end of the rope and had tons and tons of slack out. My climber would have died if she didn't have a toprope too. Then my coach got really pissed at me but no one had ever explained it to me or anything!! but my point is that its hard to "pick up on stuff" or whatever and it REALLY helps to have someone coaching you and telling you where to stand and how much slack and what not. this is coming from someone who hasnt really been leading all that long (2 months) and is still being coached and stuff. even though thats also cuz im younger. +1 I thought that buying and reading a few books and working things out for myself before doing actual lead was good enough. Taking an intro to lead course at my gym not only showed me how fucking dumb of an idea that truly was but it was an incredibly humbling experience that showed me I've got a long way to go and it's going to take time to make these skills second nature. You'll quickly realize just how dangerous errors and mistakes can be even if sport climbing and gym climbing are on the shallow end of the pool for climbing.
Well, self teaching is not for everyone, but a lot of people did pick up climbing in an age with a lot less resource than there is out there now. Most have become more than competent and a few exceptionals even managed to improve standard practices. Of course, if you have to ask, you should probably take a class. Just know that no amount of classes, coaching will likely be sufficient by themselves: some things you just have to figure out by yourself.
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Kartessa
May 25, 2011, 10:39 PM
Post #49 of 51
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enigma wrote: erisspirit wrote: jacques wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport. an other distinction? Ummm I didn't say any of that... The only thing I said in this thread is I couldn't figure out what you were saying in the sentence I quoted. Maybe he is trying to write in English from French? Its a hard transition from one language to another, give him a break!
I disagree with you once again... even to a french person, what he said makes no sense.
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sungam
May 26, 2011, 7:43 AM
Post #50 of 51
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Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: erisspirit wrote: jacques wrote: sticky_fingers wrote: Typically before someone climbs a sport route, they and and their partner look to see where the bolts are, thus giving the belayer an opportunity to see where the leader will be when the leader pulls rope to clip. [...} The belayer has the same job/responsibility whether the leader is clipping bolts or placing gear. I must say that I find more difficult to belay sport route for the reason errispirit gave. This don't means that trad is easier as the people climb two degree lower when they trad climb, compare to soport. But, as errispirit said, in trad, the climber try to find a rest place. So, trad climber must be stronger climber to realize the same route difficulty because they have to place gear in a hard rest place. I think that is why the cotation is easier in trad than in sport. an other distinction? Ummm I didn't say any of that... The only thing I said in this thread is I couldn't figure out what you were saying in the sentence I quoted. Maybe he is trying to write in English from French? Its a hard transition from one language to another, give him a break! I disagree with you once again... even to a french person, what he said makes no sense.
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